Fighter guns - preference

[Smoke2much]

I'll take 8 of those then for my Hurricane

Will.

Cheers for the link Rifleman

[Professor Brensec]

That's one extremely deadly and accurate weapon.

It will penetrate just under 3" armour at 500 metres.

(This is what I mean. Why do they need they other thing?)  ;D

[Hagar]

Goodness only knows. The different & more efficient methods we dream up in order to obliterate each other never cease to amaze & horrify me.

Brensec. Did you know the inventor of this Metal Storm thingy is an Aussie? http://www.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/06/26/australia.metalstorm/

[Professor Brensec]

Goodness only knows. The different & more efficient methods we dream up in order to obliterate each other never cease to amaze & horrify me.

Brensec. Did you know the inventor of this Metal Storm thingy is an Aussie? http://www.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/06/26/australia.metalstorm/

Well I'll be buggered! Aussie eh? Well That doesn't surprise me, really. We've been responsible for hundreds of modern inventions in the last 100 years or so.  ;D

The article also answers my question with regard to it's purpose. It says it would offer a "defensive curtain" against missiles etc.
Well at least there is a reason for it other than to waste money and kill more people quicker.

Defensive stuff is OK.  ;D

[HawkerTempest5]

I stumbled on this while poking around. Thought it might interest some of you. http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14afdu.html
It's an official comparison of the Spitfire Mk XIV with contemporary aircraft dated 15 June 1944. Here's what they say about it compared with the Mustang Mk III (P-51B/C I think).

Thanks for posting that link Hagar pal, I enjoyed reading that. Learned a couple of facts I didn't know.
Thanks for the Metal Storm link also. I knew something about it, but that answered all the questions I was not sure about.

If I wasn't the 'pacifist' that I am, I would post a new topic now, that reads "Spit or Hurricane - Which do you prefer?".

What do you think the reception would be?.........lol

LOL...

[Professor Brensec]

I was very surprised to read that the tests showed that the Spit IVX had a tighter turning circle than the Mustang MkIII (P51D).

The Sims certainly do not reflect this. Even in the 1% planes. I have found that the Spits, all of them, have a rather wide circle when compared to the P51 B & D, Hurri (Of course - which would be my choice for the tightest) and even the American Navy F4F anf F6F.

I fight a turning dogfight almost all the time. I can judge the right place to put rounds so that a turning enemy will run into them. I'm far better in that area than in any other part of dogfighting. So, consequently, the tight turn is what I look for. It's how I attack when I can and it's how I like to escape. (That's why the P51d shortcoming which is the great bleed off of speed when you turn too tightly, never suited me).

Anyhow..........................

[Hagar]

Brensec. The Spitfire in the test is the Mk XIV (or Mark 14). This was the first production Spit fitted with the RR Griffon. I think you will find that the Spit could out-turn most contemporary fighters.

The Mustang III was the P-51B/C (not the P-51D which was the Mustang IV). Most of the RAF Mustang IIIs were modified with the Malcolm Hood. I found an interesting aricle here. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_9.httml

After these Mustang III aircraft had been delivered to England, the RAF decided that the hinged cockpit canopy offered too poor a view for European operations. A fairly major modification was made in which the original framed hinged hood was replaced by a bulged Perspex frameless canopy that slid to the rear on rails. This canopy gave the pilot much more room and the huge goldfish bowl afforded a good view almost straight down or directly to the rear. This hood was manufactured and fitted by the British corporation R. Malcolm & Co., and came to be known as the "Malcolm Hood". This hood was fitted to most RAF Mustang IIIs, and many USAAF Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51B/C fighters received this modification as well.

Many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series. It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view. Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made them less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign.

[Professor Brensec]

Extremely interesting, Hagar.

I know the plane being discussed is the Spit 14, I just got my X's and V's around the wrong way..............lol.

Although I did have in my mind the P51D, especially as the test date given was Feb '44.

Your last quotes about the P51 B/C and D are interesting to me, to say the least.
I've always considered the B to be a better all round fighter. I know it was faster in it's original form. I know it handles better than the D. It has the same manoeuvrability as the D without that terrible 'bleed off' of speed in a tight turn.
I will always use it in preference to a D model.  ;D

It's strange that they always have the P51B in the Sims, with 6 x .50's, which I've always known is wrong. Even the avhistory 1% planes have the 6 guns (I'm quite sure at least).
The funny thing is they still only represent the 4 gun ammo load of around 1800 instead of the 2400 of the D model. I think something's gone awry somewhere!  ;D

I also don't know why the B didn't have the 6 guns fitted. It would seem to be the same wing as the D and the weight wouldn't be a factor, not with the power available in that plane. Mystery to me!  ;D

Of course the D was the choice of the day because of it's range, which the B didn't have, although it was a little more than the Spit 14.

I just don't see this tight turning circle that everyone talks of when referring to the Spit (any model), to me they seem not to turn as tight as most of the planes of the time (except the P47 which was pretty useless turning wise, and the FW190, which, with all it's advantages, IMO, didn't turn very tightly either.

Of course all this is based on my own Sim experience, which is really all anyone here has as a 'personal' guide for their opinions. I do use the 1% fighters in all the models available and I think that the 'relative' differences in turn, roll, climb, speed etc are all much the same when compared to the 'default planes' in CFS1 & 2. They are just less responsive, or 'touchy' on the stick, which I believe is the more realistic representation.
Only a WWII pilot (or someone with a good amount of experience in warbird flying of different types) could really argue one way or another, an they are all over 75 - 80 years old and their experience is 60 years old.  ;D

As I've said, my dogfight is a turning fight, if I've got anything to do with setting the pace and the scene. This being the case, I would defeat "myself" flying a P47, Spit, Fw190, P38, Me109G and even a P51b if I was in a Hurricane. I would out-turn 'myself' every time..........lol.

[HawkerTempest5]

Brensec. The Spitfire in the test is the Mk XIV (or Mark 14). This was the first production Spit fitted with the RR Griffon. I think you will find that the Spit could out-turn most contemporary fighters.

Hagar old chum, the first Griffon Spit in production was the MkXII. Only a hunderd or so were built and equiped two squadrons in 1943 (41 and 91) and they were used in the low lever roll against the FW190. Based on a MkVIII airframe with a MkV "C" wing and the asymmetric  radiator/oil cooler of the Mk V rather than the symmetric type fitted to other Griffon Spits.

Brensec pal, I don't know if I'm correct here but I remember reading about a restoration of a P-51C and the writer said how the restorer, who was a P-51D speciallist, had a few problems because of the differences in the wing. If this is correct, it could explain why the B/C model only had 4 x 50cal. and the D had 6.
I don't fly as many 1% planes as you, but I find the SIMULATED P-51 will stall in a tight turn where a Spitfire will not. Also SIMULATED Spits out turn just about anything. I can get away with just about anything in a Spit, but find I can stall out a Mustang if I try to fly it the way I do a Spit.
I real life, both planes filled a very different roll. The Spit was designed as a short range defencive fighter/interseptor. The Mustang was a long range tactical fighter. In these rolls, each was the best in their field. As it said in Hagars link, the two should not be campared because they should never be enemies.

[Hagar]

[quote]It's strange that they always have the P51B in the Sims, with 6 x .50's, which I've always known is wrong. Even the avhistory 1% planes have the 6 guns (I'm quite sure at least).
The funny thing is they still only represent the 4 gun ammo load of around 1800 instead of the 2400 of the D model. I think something's gone awry somewhere!

[Hagar]

[quote]

Hagar old chum, the first Griffon Spit in production was the MkXII. Only a hunderd or so were built and equiped two squadrons in 1943 (41 and 91) and they were used in the low lever roll against the FW190. Based on a MkVIII airframe with a MkV "C" wing and the asymmetric

[HawkerTempest5]

Here's the AAEE report on the Mk XII.
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/dp845.html

Thanks for that link Hagar pal, some interesting reading there.

[Professor Brensec]

Sorry boys, been offline for a bit.  ;D

Thanks for the links and the extra info. Especially the Spit. I do often wonder about all those 'missing' numbers.  ;D

Hawk,
As you said the P51D did have that stall problem, in a tight turn. I mention, in my post, "that terrible speed bleed-off" problem. By this I, of course, am referring to the fact that they will lose speed to the point of stalling, if you use their really tight turning ability. So, yes, I have to agree, but the B doesn't seem to have that shortcoming. Not to me anyway.  ;D

As I said I prefer the B over the D. I think it is kind of compromise on my part, where I can have the speed and power, a good turning circle (but not that stall that you get in the D model) and the superior roll rate (which I'm sure the P51-B has over the say, MkIX Spit (unclipped at least).

Maybe it has alot to do with the fuselage tank in the P51D.
Did the B have this? I don't think it did. I know it didn't carry near as much fuel. I'll have a look.

[HawkerTempest5]

I'm sure it was just the later D model and the H (pacific long range model) that had the tank behind the pilot. I'm certain this was not included in early D's or in the B/C model.
I only have two P-51's that are not D models for CFS2. One is a Mustang MkII (Alison) and the other a Mustang Mk III. The MkII is a bit twitchy and the MkIII I'm sure has the flight model from a D because it flys just the same and stalls out in a tight turn. Shame because it would be nice to know what a correct flight model was like.

[Hagar]

[quote]Thanks for the links and the extra info. Especially the Spit. I do often wonder about all those 'missing' numbers.