Sept. 11, 2003

[Romulus111VADT]

http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html                    

This link is from a New York City Fireman who lost his entire crew on 9-11-01. This is a very dramatic and thought provoking website.    
                                                                         
           
                                                                           

[Scottler]

OTTOL....excellent points.  However, to answer your question, yes.  Most flag etiquette I've known as long as I can remember because it was (being raised in a military household) part of my parental influence, and also because I was heavily involved in Boy Scouts, where you had to know that seemingly useless stuff.

I also agree with the concept of mandatory enlistment, despite it having a few flaws.  The pros would definitely exist, don't get me wrong, but I think you'd find that the morale of the Marines and other troops would be dangerously low and resentment high, because they're not there by choice.

With that said, I'll also say that I think you'd find that the crime rate and drug abuse would decrease, and that the general level of maturity, respect, and integrity would greatly rise, if all citizens were required to enlist for a year or two directly out of high school.

[Wing Nut]

I also agree that two years of service towards your country should be mandatory.  I agree with Scott, however that there would be serious problems.  This gimme Kazaa generation would not like too much having their lives interrupted for something so trivial as duty to one's country.  I would suggest thoguh, that this service need not be military.  For those who do not believe in violence of any sort for any reason, they could serve in the Peace Corp or in government service working with the homeless or drug abuse clinics.  The mandatory service is not just about paying to live in your country.  Experiences like the military or the Peace Corp help people grow, experience new things and come out the other end more mature and with a better world view.

[Scottler]

The flaw with your theory, Pippin, is that the Peace Corps is an international organization which is focused on those countries deemed "third world" nations.

This would not allow someone from say, the United States, to join and then aid their homeland.  They would be shipped off to Kenya to educate school children.

While noble, it would not do as you say.

I do, however, want to make one single comment about your statement concerning "those who do not believe in war", and I hope it is taken in the non-attacking context it is intended.

Believe in it.  War is inevitable.  War is the result of the human animal's ability to form opinion.  Until that portion of our existance is removed, war will continue to plague us.

Also remember that were it not for war, none of us would have the liberties to speak those opinions.  War is a necessary monster, as terrible as that is.

Anyone who believes otherwise needs to be reminded from where this country was born.

Do I WANT war?  No.  But would I join my neighbors to protect this country when attacked?  Absolutely.

[BFMF]

[quote]I would suggest thoguh, that this service need not be military.

[OTTOL]

....sorry, I've been reading the "Challenge to you all..." thread for the last 1/2 hour!

Most flag etiquette I've known as long as I can remember because it was (being raised in a military household)

Once again, I need the "foot-in-mouth" smiley face added to the above Icons! Personally, my father was Air Force(nobody is perfect :-/  ), but he never instilled Military or Patriotic etiquette. Thankfully, he DID have a library that took up half of the house, and did get me hooked on airplanes. If you spent time in the Boy Scouts, I can see where you would have such values instilled much earlier in life. I just know that my father taught us good ethics in all matters, but it took the Marine Corps to teach me, not only proper procedures, but also personal standards!

I also agree with the concept of mandatory enlistment, despite it having a few flaws.  The pros would definitely exist, don't get me wrong, but I think you'd find that the morale of the Marines and other troops would be dangerously low and resentment high, because they're not there by choice.

I have already given that thought, we could leave the Army option for those guys!   Or maybe have a 3month active duty program, because that seems to be the average duration of patriotism following catastrophic national events in this country! :-/

[Scottler]

lol@the army joke.  (Army=Ain't Ready for the Marines Yet)

On a serious note though, Andrew has an excellent point as well.

Yes, there are a lot of people in the military who have combat roles.  However, for every one of them, there is literally a team consisting of dozens and dozens of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who support them.

Cooks, firefighters, police officers, secretaries, journalists, etc.

One thing I've found is that the civilian perception of the military is very, very, very inaccurate.

Most civilians believe that the military is nothing but a war machine, willing to kill at the drop of a hat.

However, please remember that the military is actually a peaceful organization.  They are not in place to fight, but to defend us all by any means necessary.

Sometimes, that means violence.  But ask them, and 100% of them will tell you that they do not want war.

Also, I often use this example in discussing the military with civilians.

Take three guys.  A, B, and C.  A begins to beat B up very brutally.  Guy B is very weak, disabled even, and can not fight back.

You're Guy C.  Do you stand next to them and try to negotiate the situation to a peaceful end?  Or do you jump on top of A, throwing him to the sidewalk, and doing whatever you have to do to prevent it from happening again?

If you chose the second method, you're not against "violence of any sort for any reason".

[BFMF]

Excellent points Scott.

I've met quite a few christains who oppose military service for that reason. They really need to realize that if it weren't for the thousands of soldiers who have died in combat, our country may have not been free country

Freedom doesn't come without a price

[OTTOL]

I'm guy D  "c'mon  B, are you gonna let him talk to yo that way? Kick his b.................." just kidding. I believe the idea of C/O's started in Vietnam. So the idea of joining the Military, even if you ARE anti-violence(by whatever definition you choose!), is not a new one. Your also right in saying, just because you're in the military, doesn't mean you'll be out there in the trenches. I made the jab about the Army, but seriously, something like the Coast Guard is another option. They spend their waking hours SAVING lives. In the end though, even the USCG fires weapons in a combat environment! As their name implies. Bringing up my final point, if the day comes, again, that combat reaches the shores of the US. I would expect anyone, who lives under the  protection of the flag, to stand and fight with their countrymen. This the concept behind the everyone in the military idea.

[Scottler]

AMEN OTTOL!  lol

Although in all fairness to the USCG, they're not technically military.  They do not fall under jurisdiction of the Department of Defense.

Rather, and I can never remember which it is, they're governed by either the Department of Labor or the Department of Transportation.

[OTTOL]

I always thought it was Navy, I'll have to look into it, but it may be DOT. On that note, if they are DOT or otherwise, don't be misled! We did a static display with the CG at Opa Locka CGAS last week. From one Marine to another, their facility, personell and procedures were are par with ANY military unit. I was impressed. And as far as THIS topic is concerned, the service (if not Military) carries the same stipulations. The biggest one being-YOU CAN'T JUST QUIT!

[Smoke2much]

I have German colluagues (Doctors) that spent their millitary service with the Ambulance service.  I work for the National Health Service, I consider this as vital as carrying a gun for my country.  The military is vital for defense but there is a lot out there that requires you to have high personal standards and involves giving part of yourself to serve your fellow man.

We live in a society brilliantly described by Pippin as the "Kazaa Gimme" generation.  They know their "Rights" but have no concept of the attendant responsibilities that go with them.

Like Exploder, I will be doing nothing to mark the day.  Whilst the event and its aftermath continue to shock and cause dismay around the world I feel it is time for the families who lost loved ones to grieve privately.

Will

[Crumbso]

Well sept.11th left me quite blank to be honest.

I didn't feel real sadness myself more an extreme sympathy for others who lost their loved ones.

You guys are talking about freedom as being what America is about but mandatory National Service isn't exactly the freedom of choice. I however don't believe in absolute freedom and my country, (Britain if you don't know), isn't exactly free as the primeminister, I think, still has the power to anounce a state of emergency though I could be wrong about this. In my opinion the service should not have to be part of the department of defence and the coast gaurd sounds like an excellent option. The point also about the Army only being there to defend the country is not exactly, at least I feel, accurate. Look at it this way Guy A is you and you think Guy B looks a bit dodgy, in fact you've come across this guy before (sound familiar yet?). So you lunge at this guy and pummel him into the ground..... not exactly defense. Don't get me wrong, I am in absolutely no way against a necessary war but I think that at least we should wait until the guy getting beaten up asks for, or shouts for, help or someone has strolen, (with no intent on moving off), onto an island that is owned by you

These arguments are besides the point though and I shall try to face Sept. 11th with dignity and live my life but still observe a 2 minute silence.

Thats my way of giving Mr.B Laden the finger.

[Scottler]

I agree OTTOL, the Coast Guard is an impressive lot with an awesome task to accomplish.

[Wing Nut]

Although in all fairness to the USCG, they're not technically military.

You've never seen the crew of a cutter get into a firefight with a bunch of drug smugglers.