not again(TSA Rant)

[Smoke2much]

I agree Craig.  I think that the problem lies in the fact that until 9/11 the US had never suffered from any serious terrorist threat in the modern sense of the world.  9/11 was a shocking wake up call, and in true US style the biggest terrorist event ever.  This has made your government react perhaps more harshly than a government with more experience in dealing with similar problems.

The UK (as an example) has been dealing with terrorism since the early seventies, I personally have nearly been blown up twice by Irish groups.  Security in Britain has always been reasonably high because of this but not as invasive as it seems to be in the States currently.  I think that given time the US will become calm again.  Many of the problems and issues you discuss seem to be beurocracy rearing its ugly head.  The political correctness blights us all.  As a white male middle class person in the UK I am amongst the most discriminated against in my country, it is not OK and it will have to change.

With the switching on of the possible bombs in the airport I think it is seen as the lesser evil to cause damage there than in a flying aircraft.  It takes a very small charge to destabilise a modern jet and cause it to crash.  In an airport it may kill 20 people, in an aircraft the same bomb has the [i]potential[/] to bring down a sky scraper.

I like your rant, feel free to rant all you like.  If you(we)  get locked down there is always the personal messages and we can rant to each other.

All the best mate.

Will

[Craig.]

thanks will:)
i remember pleanty of times living on army bases, we would get the familiar knock on the door that meant a bomb had been found somewhere(middle wallop would be really bad for that:)) we would all have to go down to a playing field till it was sorted. then there were cases where they would have to put armed guards at the entrance but all they would do is a quick search under the cars, in the boot that was it, professional quick and unintrusive.
they need to take that sort of thing into consideration in the US and perhaps put some of the ideas into action, it may help

[Scottler]

Now see?  We can discuss this without offending anyone.  lol

Craig, I agree with parts and disagree with parts of your rant.  I'll break them down one step at a time.

Switching on electronic devices.  This isn't a new thing.  When I worked for Continental, for the last half of the 90's, I always had to turn my pager on while going through the security checkpoint.  This is more than likely a result of the suspicion that Pan Am 103 was brought down by an explosive device in a portable radio.  This isn't new at all.

The TSA employees themselves.  I'll agree that this is a joke.  However the government didn't make this a private company.  Quite the contrary.  In fact, pre-9/11, airport security was handled by private firms.  It wasn't until after September 11th that they became federal employees.  

Unfortunately, they are the same idiots (mostly) which were running security for the private companies, and its more of a visual impact than anything else.  I can't speak of the training which they've gone through, because I don't know anything about it, but I can say that all the training in the world is useless if the trainee has the intellect of a grapefruit.

As for the volume of TSA staff....its important to remember that we live in a society that can never be pleased.  If there are too many, we'll complain about the money being "wasted".  But when there weren't enough, it was an atrocity because we "allowed" September 11th to happen.  People will never be satisfied, regardless of how many people are manning the checkpoints of our nation's airports.

And now, the racial profiling debate.  This has been going on in the United States for quite some time, with no clear solution in sight.  I, personally see no problems with it.  It's not blonde haired 8-year old Danish girls blowing up airplanes.  The majority of terrorist activities involving airliners in the last 100 years have been accomplished by men between 18-30 of Middle Eastern descent, and the statistics show this.  People need to understand that we, as Americans, want to be safe.  "You" (not you, but my fellow passenger) need to be a little more sympathetic and keep this in mind.  They're not going to treat you with any disrespect, they're just making sure you're not a threat.  If they check you out, and you're not a threat, then you have my sympathy, but not my apologies.  We're trying to save our own lives.  If you're not willing to make a minor sacrifice to protect me, then I'm not going to make any sacrifices to protect you, and I don't want you on my airplane.  Take the bus.

Everyone thinks that air travel is a right, and it isn't.  It's a privilege, and one that you don't have to benefit from.  There are other options available to me, to you, and to anyone else who doesn't want to go through the security measures.

Air travel is a mode of public transportation which arrives and departs a public venue.  There is no, nor should there be, an expectation of privacy.  It's not a private facility.  

I'm not racist either, and in fact, anyone who knows me personally will attest to the fact that isn't even possible with me, for reasons I won't bore you all with.

However, and I say this sternly, everyone needs to understand the severity of this problem.  It's a problem which affects us all, and could potentially kill us.  Anyone who fits the pattern of those who have taken our brothers and sisters should be subject to increased scrutiny.  If tomorrow 10,000 Chinese women were to bomb shopping malls, I'd say let's look twice at Asian women as they enter the mall.  

IMHO, anyone who doesn't is partly to blame.

Rant Rebuttal over.  lol

[Craig.]

thanks hype:)
what i meant by the comment of who ran the company, i meant it seems to be run by a bunch of people who arnt being regulated in any way shape or form by the government, although it may be a goverment thing.
and i know the electronics being switched on isnt anything new,but they have been making it take so much time and effort, a laptop like mine takes a heck of a long time to start up and shut down due to the stupid windows log off thing it does, you get 10 of those your causing a back log very quickly. and again it could be a rather large explosive wiping out a security hall of an airport i just think some new machine should be developed that could prevent this from all being nessicary.but again budget crisis::)
they dont seem to have any patience either, although in some ways thats a good thing.
anyway you made some good points there hype thanks for the input:)

[Scottler]

Craig, I like you, and I'm not intentionally trying to single you out as my "victim" here or anything.  lol

But this is what I always ask people who talk about the security checkpoint taking too long, though usually it's just me screaming at my television.  lol

Let me ask you this...how long is too long to wait to protect yourself?

Your wife?

Your children?

An hour?  Two?  Three?

If it means that I have to get to the airport three days before my flight, so that each and every person can have a full background check and body cavity search, but I'm confident that my girlfriend will get to her destination in one piece, I'll be there.  It might suck, but I'll feel get over it.  Can one get over the loss of one's children?  

[Craig.]

well as you may or may not know i am niether married nor have kids so that not a problem:) and i have no girlfriend.
but i have no problem with security as a whole, here in the UK we have been doing the whole tight security for years and have rarely had a problem with it. Again my problem is with who is doing the security and how they are going about it, ok it doesnt help their cause that post 9/11 they took my suitcase and emptied it on a table without having any privacy, having a check in hall of people staring at my personal effect and underwear isnt always a good thing and then the person checking it goes off on a rant about how it isnt folded, i am going home i didnt expect you to hold a public viewing of my boxers thank ya very much:) the security before 9/11 was good as it was, it was only because a few mistakes were made that people thought differant, the only problem was those mistakes cost 3000 people their lives on a terrible day,
something needs to be done really, one is employ people with qualifications, as you said it doesnt matter how much training a person has if they are an idiot.
or perhaps they should get adivce from countrys who have been doing this sort of thing for alot longer. in general are they doing a bad job? no not really, they are doing a good enough job with a poor attitude.
although again like you said what sort of lengths can be considered enough to protect your family???
not really a shot at anyone, just a case of me disliking the TSA a great deal

[Scottler]

But you've got a mother, a father, a distant cousin Marty, a friend....everyone has someone they care about in some way, know what I mean?

And you're right.  They went through your suitcase with no privacy.  But again, what is private about a public building and public transportation?

I'm not disagreeing with your post as a whole, just a few minor points of said post.

Overall, I think we share the same belief.  They need to do a better job.  lol  (Would you believe they're still finding people asleep at the checkpoints, they're still finding security people who have criminal records, and illegal aliens?)

[Smoke2much]

I don't see hyperion's post as a rebuttal at all.  It is an explanation of the reasoning behind why things are the way they are.  As for security delaying flights; I personaly don't have a problem with it.  Make the last check in time on the ticket an hour earlier.

My reason for needing and wanting increased security around aircraft is not for the passengers and crew but for us under the flight path.  On December 21 1988 I was living on the Isle of Man, my father was driving us home over the mountain road from Douglas to Ramsey, away to the north we saw what we thought was a shooting star, it wasn't.  It was the passengers and crew of Pan Am flight 103 dying over scotland and killing people in the little village of Lokerbie, a place no one had ever heard of.

If you choose to fly either as a passenger or as crew you make a choice.  If you live under the flight path of the bombed aircraft you have no choice at all.  I rarely fly and would be happy if all passport holders required extensive back ground checks before boarding their flight, it makes no differance to me and might save my life if the 'plane doesn't explode over my head.

I don't see Craigs rant as an attack on the need for security but an attack on the people doing it.

Will

[Scottler]

This thread is evidence that we CAN talk about serious issues facing us all without it becoming a flame war.

Now, of course there will be some twit somewhere who makes this all about them, and how we attacked THEM....

But seriously, this is a very good discussion, and you should all be proud of your ability to discuss it maturely.

Good job!

[Smoke2much]

One thing that has annoyed me in the "post 9/11" world is that the US is sending out "advisors" to other nations (eg us) to help them improve their security.  9/11 happened, as far as I can see it, because a very dedicated, ruthless and lucky set of evil bastards got through US security.  We are supposed to learn lessons from them?

Wha' sup wi dat? (Hyperion quote LOL)

Will

[Scottler]

a very dedicated, ruthless and lucky set of evil bastards

Oooh, got THROUGH security...I thought you were talking ABOUT security...haha  My bad...

[Smoke2much]

? huh ?

Don't get it.  I want good security.  We NEED good security.  I just don't think that the US governments/air industrys' track record makes them the best to offer advice to others.  Thats all.  It isn't an attack, merely a statement of my perception of the facts.

Will

[Craig.]

i wouldnt worry about disagreeing with my points:) i enjoy these sorts of discussions, you get to not only put your point across but also learn others and see new ways of looking at an issue. If you see something i say that might be wrong or stupid please say so:)
obviously i am going from the point of only a passenger, and not an insider, my time working at bristol aiport, wasnt very long so i didnt get the chance to have my security pass done and what not so i didnt have a chance to watch how they operate here fully.
hype your points are all valid i am not going to dispute that one, and your time with the airline business(correct?) has given you a better chance to see how things have changed and worked. like Will said this isnt about having security we aboslutly do, and it needs to be top notch, having really poor security is like opening an all you can eat free buffet at a weight loss center,  every one with intent is gonna be there:) having an open invitation to terrorists is def the last thing anyone wants, but i also believe the TSA are in a way giving them that invitation by not screening middle eastern 20 to 30 year old males as often because they dont want to be seen as predjudice against said people. I have no real problem with being searched my bags being searchd(although a little curtain privacy isnt to hard to provide) but the thing is i am not the one who is planning to dump a plane into some building or blow the thing up in mid air.
i'll end it there:) i will be watching out my windows for the next few days to make sure a group of black SUV's dont suddenly pull up outside my house and the Feds decide they dont like my opinions:) LOL if you dont here from me again you know what happend

[Scottler]

I definitely agree that the U.S. needs to stop worrying about "offending" people and just say, "Hey, this is how we do things.  If you don't like it, you're at an airport, you know your options."  lol

And yeah, they could probably search bags without dumping them all over the place.  (Really not a good idea anyway, just from the point of view that there could be pressure sensitive explosives in there.  lol)  

As for the comments about your laundry not being folded...that is rude, but it's what you're going to get with the TSA, which up until recently, was only making a hair over minimum wage.  lol

We should follow el al's lead.  They've got a system figured out.  But we never will, because people will be "offended".  Screw em.  lol

[Craig.]

i do have to agree they should try something like El Al's security, they seem to have it down almost perfect.