Korea - 'The Forgotten War'

[ATI_7500]

felix,wasn't that a Yak-15 shot down by Major Stratton in his F-3D ??

the first expression,that comes into my mind when i hear "Korean War" is MiG Alley,maybe the most famous dog-fighting zone of the whole world. there were some pretty nasty fightings between F-86 and MiG 15 out there.

[Professor Brensec]

felix,wasn't that a Yak-15 shot down by Major Stratton in his F-3D ??

the first expression,that comes into my mind when i hear "Korean War" is MiG Alley,maybe the most famous dog-fighting zone of the whole world. there were some pretty nasty fightings between F-86 and MiG 15 out there.

Regarding the two planes mentioned above, the series has covered these quite well. I'm lead to understand that both planes were a pretty close match in a dogfight.
The only two noteable differences being a slightly better handling on the MiG15 and the different guns. (Although the gun issue seems to be more of a matter of preference for the pilot). The better trained (many WWII vets) of the US accounted for the higher number of MiGs shot down
The pilots interviewed (US) seemed to prefer the .50 cals of the F86, where the one Russian interviewed (I wonder if he was one of the Russians who DIDN"T fight in Korea....lol ) pointed out that a single hit from a 20mm cannon could put a plane down where many hits from a .50 cal would be required in most cases.
The point was made that not much consideration was given to the guns on these planes as it wasn't expected that dogfighting would be possible at the higher speeds of jet aircraft.

I've noticed in CFS2 that an F86 or Mig15 doing sharp turns, rolls and other dogfighting type manoeuvres, usually doesn't get above 300 kts anyway. No wonder there were a number of 'jets' killed by 450mph+ prop planes in the conflict.

PS. Oz, regarding my comments about Australia taking part in 'every noteable conflict', I was refering to our participation as an official memeber of a UN force, as in Korea, Gulf 1991, Somalia etc or as an ally of the US, as in Vietnam or the recent Afghan and Iraq conflicts.
I understand your comments in regard to the service of peoples of other nations serving in the military forces of the US, UK and even Australia.

[Felix/FFDS]

You may be right - the dource I read from identifies that the first jet to jet nighttime interception was by an F3D to a Mig15 .. but not having done an extension cross-checking ..... I don't claim full knowledge of this.

I *believe* that the *first*  no ground assistance, radar only - "I didn't see the guy in front of me when I pressed the trigger" was when an F3D blasted a vicious, dangerous Po-2  on it's nightly harrasment mission...  (of course, even if it isn't true, it still makes for a neat chuckle)

felix,wasn't that a Yak-15 shot down by Major Stratton in his F-3D ??

the first expression,that comes into my mind when i hear "Korean War" is MiG Alley,maybe the most famous dog-fighting zone of the whole world. there were some pretty nasty fightings between F-86 and MiG 15 out there.

[Hagar]

Most sources I've tracked down appear to bear out ATI's version of events.

On the night of 2 November 1952, a Skyknight piloted by Marine Major William Stratton, accompanied by radar operator Master Sergeant Hans Hoagland, shot down what they reported from the exhaust pattern to be a Yak-15 fighter, though the type was not known to be operated by the North Koreans. The kill was confirmed as the Skyknight flew through the wreckage of the target, narrowly evading damage. This was the first night kill of a jet by another jet.

As the action took place in the dark it's possible nobody, except the N Koreans, would ever know for sure.  ::)

[ATI_7500]

why don't we ask them?

[Ivan]

Korea was the last war in which the big propellor fighters flew.

Probably russian aircraft in service then:
Late models Yak-3 and Yak-9
late Il-2's and the newer Il-10, which looks almost the same
MiG-15
Yak-15/17, which are older types.

The north-korean pilots performed badly, making up most of the UN MiG kill ratio. with Russians at the controls, the MiG did score 1 to 1 against the F-86

[Felix/FFDS]

Interesting reading...

http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html

521103 Galyshevskij/351 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F3D-2 night kill

Stratton/Hoglind USMC F3D-2 1 x Yak-17 VSS Chief 64th IAK (KIA) night radar kill

I would read this that a Mig15 shot down an F3D at night, and another F3D shot down a Yak-17 on Nov. 03 , 1952..

[denishc]

Hi all,
 Real quick about Mig-15s and F-86s.........from what I've read about the two, the Mig-15 was 5,000 lbs. lighter than the F-86.  This ment that the Mig was slightly faster and could climb higher then the F-86.  F-86 pilots complained about not getting high enough or going fast enough to catch a Mig-15.  But the F-86 was a better gun platform, had a better gun site and was very stable when firing.  Also the F-86 had powered flight surfaces, that made handling the aircraft better at all speeds, while the Mig's controls stiffened at high speeds.  
 Its true that the all cannon armament of the Mig-15 had much better striking force then the 50 cal.s of the F-86.  But becouse the cannon were a mix in sizes (I believe a 37mm on the left side and two 23mm on the right) they caused the nose of the Mig to "snake around" when fired, making it diffcult for the Mig pilot to keep a bead on his target.
 

[ATI_7500]

Korea was the last war in which the big propellor fighters flew.

and what about vietnam (A-1 Skyraider)??

[Felix/FFDS]

#1 - The A-1 (or originally, AD) Skyraider was never meant to be a "fighter" hence the "A" designation for attack ...

#2 - To be picky - the last "war" in which prop fighters fought each other was the border war between El Salvador and Honduras - Corsairs on both sides, and Mustangs, I believe on the Salvadorean side.

and what about vietnam (A-1 Skyraider)??

[Ivan]

[quote]Hi all,

[Professor Brensec]

It was simply said: if the mig got into hitting the US aircraft, it was time to bail out, because it could inflict heavy damage when it did hit (blowing complete tails off and such)

This was basically what the two pilots that were interviewed in the series said. I've had a look at the tape and the American Pilot puts it something like this:

"The Mig 15 was definitely a better 'jet fighter' as far as handling, speed went but they had a hell of a time hitting us. Their rate of fire was very slow, so the chance of a hit was low, but if they got just one good hit, it was 'goodnight'.
They could only fight for a short time too. They didn't have anywhere near the amount of ammo that we had. It was lucky for them they could run away faster, because we always had ammo left after an encounter."

The Russian mentioned the ammo problem to. In subtitles, it reads:

"I wish we could have had more ammo. Or even if they replced the canon with machine guns, the MiG would have been a bigger threat to the Americans."

He also said: "The American pilots were very good aviators. I think most of them that flew the F86 and the old P51's were veterans of the Second World War. i think the man Yaeger was there too"

(My apologies for my slip up before when I said "20mm" canon. I meant the larger calibres).

Don't know how much truth there is in what the Russian had to say, but he seemed to be honest kind of a bloke. He certainly wasn't your "stereo-typical" Russian communist (of which I don't think there are very many). He was all to willing to give credit where it was due.
I think (not sure, have to check) that later in the series he rubbishes the later MiGs a bit. I recall he refers to one as a "carbon copy' of the American version. Maybe the one that's the same as the F14 (again, I think).  ;D

[denishc]

Hello out there,
 I wonder if the 37mm cannon carried on the Mig-15 (and later Mig-17s) were direct descendants of the 37mm cannon fitted to lend-lease P-39s supplied to Russian during the Second World War?  Certainly the Russians must of seen the value of such a weapon in air combat.

[Hogans_Alley]

>:( >:( >:(

They should've allowed McArthur to nuke north of the Yalu. Then we won't have the mess we're in now. Recon!

Hogans Alley

[Oz]

Well, think about it. If Mc Arthur nuked the north China would have taken a tougher stance, as would Russia, and therefore the war would not only have expanded but intensified as well. And with Russia...well...all hell would have broken loose. Of course yes i do think the US should have gotten rid of the NK government as soon as their advance towards the south slowed down (in a non-nuclear way). It would have prolonged the war and make it more bloody but NK would no longer pose a