Best War Film Part 2

[HawkerTempest5]

Hot off the press!!

Saw the History Channel latest installment of "Battle Stations". It was titled "RAF Fighter Command".
Can you imagine the excitement when I saw the title come to screen?

Much of the same old stuff, BoB, Spit, Hurri, 109, 190 etc.

But a few "new to my knowledge" items. Not the least of which is:
The Meteor first flew on 12th July 1944 in order to be used as a V1 shooter downer. Didn't know that. I thought it didn't fly (or was available for service) until well into 1945. Just goes to show you.
Based on the stats that they gave ie. speed, performance etc, if it ever met the Me262, I don't think it would have fared very well.

I don't think I've seen that Battle Stations! Last night the first new Battle Stations was on History here. It was all about the P-38 mostly in the Pacific. I've taped it and will watch it later.

About the Meteor, Adolf Galland, the German ace, was one of the only people to fly both the ME 262 and the Meteor operationally. He said that the 262 was the better plane, but that the Meteor's Rolls Royce engines were far superior to the Jumo's on the 262. He said that if the 262 had had the Rolls Royce engines it would have been a world beater. I suppose he should have challenged Rolls Royce to a game of Billiards!

[Professor Brensec]

I don't think I've seen that Battle Stations! Last night the first new Battle Stations was on History here. It was all about the P-38 mostly in the Pacific. I've taped it and will watch it later.

About the Meteor, Adolf Galland, the German ace, was one of the only people to fly both the ME 262 and the Meteor operationally. He said that the 262 was the better plane, but that the Meteor's Rolls Royce engines were far superior to the Jumo's on the 262. He said that if the 262 had had the Rolls Royce engines it would have been a world beater. I suppose he should have challenged Rolls Royce to a game of Billiards!

lol.................

I knew that the Russians did get the Rolls and used it, but I wasn't aware of the circumstances. I still can't believe that they could have been so stupid, given the tension and suspicion between the Allies and the Soviets during the late '40's.

I mean, wouldn't there have been some kind of Government or Security intervention when this took place. Wouldn't Rolls have had to tell someone that they were giving/selling this to the Soviets?  :o

[Hagar]

[quote]

lol.................

I knew that the Russians did get the Rolls and used it, but I wasn't aware of the circumstances. I still can't believe that they could have been so stupid, given the tension and suspicion between the Allies and the Soviets during the late '40's.

I mean, wouldn't there have been some kind of Government or Security intervention when this took place. Wouldn't Rolls have had to tell someone that they were giving/selling this to the Soviets?

[HawkerTempest5]

I never saw the Mig 15 on Battle Stations, but I could remember reading about it having a Rolls Royce engine. I must admit it struck me as incredible that the Russians got hold of one without British Government knowladge. Since I read what brensec wrote about how the Russians got hold of the engine, I've been trying to find out a bit more about it but all I can come up with is this:

The Mig 15 was conceived in 1946 to meet a directive for a high altitude day interceptor to be designed around a Rolls Royce Nene Turbojet.
According to my research, the Russians were in negotiations with Britain to aquire the engine.
The first Mig 15 flew on 30 December 1947 with a Nene 1 engine and the second on 27th may 1948 with a Nene 2 engine.
The Russians built a copy of the Nene and called it the RD-45. Production aircraft had a 5005 lb st RD-45F engine.
I doubt the Russians had permission to build the Nene though!

[Hagar]

To my understanding it wasn't so much the actual material but the heat treatment. Nimonic 80 was the big breakthrough which gave RR the advantage over other jet engine manufacturers. Manufacturing the turbine blades from this alloy extended their service life considerably & made the jet engine into a viable proposition. Like many important discoveries it was made quite by accident. The story goes that a technician in the research department went off on a tea break, completely forgetting about some blades he'd left in the oven. When he returned & hurriedly removed them they had the exact properties they were looking for. Manufacture was a complicated process & remained a closely guarded secret for many years. It's difficult to imagine how the Russian engineers could have duplicated the technique even from an example of a turbine blade or the complete engine.

It's hard to tell how many of these popular "true" stories are genuine or the typical shopfloor legends found in any company.

[Professor Brensec]

Hagar,

I have part of the program still on tape, so I had another look and can confirm the following.
As you say, the History Channel is not immune to the same legends and myths that any other program or publication might be, but the account is given with quite some authority and dates are even mentiioned, with regard to the visit by the MiG representatives.

Apparently what was won over the game of billiards were the Plans to the engine (which I assume would have included manufacturing techniques).

As for the bloke who wore the "sticky soled shoes". It is the actual person involved who relates the story. he goes so far as to say that because of the total acquisition of the plans and a sample engine, his little foray at the factory was not necessary.

As we agree, none of this proves anything and some, at least, could be lore or hearsay or a Russian plot to make the Poms look stupid (as if they need any help.....LOL)  ;D

[Hagar]

Hi Brensec. I note that as a typical Aussie you can't resist an opportunity for a bash at us Poms.

[Professor Brensec]

G'day Hagar,

You may well be right. It is impossible to tell what really happened, even as related by those who were presumably there. They know there is no-one to challenge the story, so in the interest of making things more intriguing or perhaps, in order to increase their own level of importance in the event, they may be likely to embellish.

The one fact that is not arguable is: the Russians had a great plane but the engine nowhere near did it justice.
This shortcoming was solved by the procurement of an original or the manufacture of a successful copy of the RR engine. This coupling produced the magnificent plane we now know as the MiG 15.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

In order to get back to the prime subject - or at least close to it, I will report a couple of my recent viewings with regard to movies or shows which have been discussed previously here.

I saw the latest "Battle Stations" on the History Channel and the subjest was the P51 (both B & D).

All pilots of WWII speak of their "mounts" with great affection but the "affair" that these young men had with this particular plane is really fascinating.
Each pilot interviewed spoke with pride, and sometimes with tears, about the P51. They all referred to it as their plane. As if they were the only one to have it.

Most said that as soon as you strapped in you became a part of the plane. Most fighter pilots say that this is necessary to be a good fighter pilot, but all the pilots interviewed didn't speak of it as a necessity rather as something that just happened without any effort from them.

One summed it up when he was asked of how he remembered his time as a P51 pilot.
He said "Anyone in their right mind had to be scared. And it was life or death, but you didn't think about that too much after your first couple of encounters.
I was 20 years old and they gave me a "state of the art" plane, and told us it was the fastest and most powerful aircraft ever made (except the Me262). It was shiny and beautiful and thundered like nothing else. Along with that, they gave us 6 huge machine guns and 1800 rounds, along with rockets and bombs, and said go and make trouble.
I had the time of my life!!!

With all due respect to the many who did not come back.....................I should be so lucky to be able to speak of a part of my life with such affection and longing when I am their age.  :'(

I also saw "The Enemy Below" yesterday. Good movie. Don't recall it being as good. My memory was that it was too long and drawn out, but it wasn't. It was very satisfying.  ;D

[HawkerTempest5]

That was a great show about the P-51. Clarence "Bud" Anderson, P-51 ace, was at Duxford this year for the USAAF commemorative show in September. On the Saturday a load of F-15 pilots from Lakenheath came to the show and such was the respect they had for Bud Anderson, they brought up loads of "Old Crow" models and pictures and got Anderson to sign them. Everytime you came accross any of these guys, they just talked about how honoured they were to meet him.

[Professor Brensec]

That was a great show about the P-51. Clarence "Bud" Anderson, P-51 ace, was at Duxford this year for the USAAF commemorative show in September. On the Saturday a load of F-15 pilots from Lakenheath came to the show and such was the respect they had for Bud Anderson, they brought up loads of "Old Crow" models and pictures and got Anderson to sign them. Everytime you came accross any of these guys, they just talked about how honoured they were to meet him.

That's right Hawker, all WWII Airforce Vets (especially fighter) are held in great esteem in every country, as much also in Japan and Germany (dunno about Italy, though).

I had the opportunity to talk with my granfather when I was young and he did talk about things a little bit, but I was too young to appreciate the history and actual value of the firsthand accounts of such things, as I would now.

As one fellow said on one of the Doco's I saw, "They really were the last of the Shining Knights."

[Professor Brensec]

My wonderful History Channel seems to have come up with another series called "World War II Gladiators" which is advertised as being about "Fighting Units of WWII"

I've seen two in the last few days the first was "Commandos and Special Forces" (I think), anyway, it featured the two British units which then and still now wear red (maroon to me) and green berets. Spoke of the creation of one of the units in Africa etc.

The second, and obviously more interesting to me was, "The Anzacs". This covered from the inception of a combined Australian and New Zealand force in WWI to their exploits and honour during WWII. Even though, in WWII, the Divisions raised by both countries were separate divisions, they were under one overall command, and often fought together. However there were also times when they fought alone as an Aust. Division or an NZ Division. At these time they were also refered to as Anzacs, although there insignia, commanders and divisions were totally different.

Sadly, I think, to most concerned, we no longer fight as one force but have totally separate Armies. A shame.

But then, there was always the language barrier......lol  ;D

[Rifleman]

[quote]
But then, there was always the language barrier......lol

[Professor Brensec]

You have no language barrier...heck, I can even understand most Aussies and Kiwis , and on a good day can tell them apart , but now take a Geordie and a Londoner. There is where you will see a real language barrier.....they say the closest thing to a Scot is a Geordie,, and you know how hard it can be to decipher a bloody Scot !

I know. There is no language barrier. I put that there for any NZ's that may see it.
It's kind of a private thing between us and them. As far as we are concerned, their accent is really annoying.

Don't get me wrong, I have many NZ friends and consider them almost countrymen. But I could never marry an NZ girl, honestly, I would go crazy listening to her all day.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

I use my History Channel wanderings to keep this thread alive.................if it wasn't already obvious.
Well they are kind of movies.....Doco's, anyway they have alot of FILM footage in them.............lol.

Latest interesting (very) report from the WWII archives of Brensec.

Caught a Doco quite by accident, it was billed in the guide as "Mysteries at the bottom of the sea" or something like that.
It turned out to be about an archaelogical study of the "DD Tanks" on the Ocean floor off Omaha Beach. The first of any such investigation.

As most would know, one of the reasons the landing went so badly there is the fact that the tanks didn't get to the beach at all, let alone before the infantry.
As the Allies had learned at Dieppe, putting infantry without armoured support (as much for their value as cover as for their fire power against entrenchments) before infantry on a heavily defended beach is suicidal.

There has always been a mystery as to why the "DD's" didn't make it onto Omaha like they did on all other beaches (one main reason for the low casualties elsewhere).
They had trained and rehearsed for months and out of thousands of lauches from nearly 10,000 yards out, no tank had ever been lost, even at night, with simply a compass bearing.
So, Why didn't they get there? Why did they all sink?
It wasn't just the rough seas, because they were just as rough on the others.

It turns out that, they were trained to aim for a point on the shore to guide them to the landing site. In this case, the church spire at Verville (I think). The wave wash, even 6,000 yards out where they launched from, comes in at nearly 45 degrees at Omaha, from the right. The DD's were having to keep turning right as the tide was drifting them left. This adjustment in direction and the 45 degree angle of the waves resulted in the DD's being completely side-on to the wash. This caused the longer side of the canvas floatation device to collapse. Something it was not designed to stand up to.

Divers report all tanks (29) are facing (more or less) toward the shore, as the crews have reported for nearly 60 years, that