spins

[ozzy72]

I'm with Brad on this one, I've done spins, and even for an experienced pilot they can be dangerous. And as he says they don't do the plane any good. Sure an SU-29 can take it, but a Cessna?
Unfortunately with learning to fly some realistic economics has to come into it. Certainly safety is of primary importance, and I look upon the PPL as being like the driving licence, it says you are capable of doing the minimum to drive, you should never stop learning. Unfortunately most car drivers think that a driving licence means they are now a road-god! Lets be honest when did any of us last pick up our Highway Code and read it? And we're meant to every year.... So it should be with flying. You've got your PPL and then you should take more advanced lessons to learn those new skills that could save your life one day.

Ozzy

[Deputy]

I'm with Brad on this one, I've done spins, and even for an experienced pilot they can be dangerous. And as he says they don't do the plane any good. Sure an SU-29 can take it, but a Cessna?
Unfortunately with learning to fly some realistic economics has to come into it. Certainly [glb]safety is of primary importance[/glb], and I look upon the PPL as being like the driving licence, it says you are capable of doing the minimum to drive, you should never stop learning. Unfortunately most car drivers think that a driving licence means they are now a road-god! Lets be honest when did any of us last pick up our Highway Code and read it? And we're meant to every year.... So it should be with flying. You've got your PPL and then you should take more advanced lessons to learn those new skills that could save your life one day.

Ozzy

'Nuff said.

[Redwing]

'Nuff said.

Well, not quite!

Looks like there's some real disagreement here about spins (methinks this is one of those 'agree-to-disagree' standoffs)!

Actually, there is a very good reason. Spins are very hard on airplanes. They can literally rip a plane apart. You don't hear about it much, but, some planes have just about disinegrated doing high-g-force spins. A spin can EASILY get out of hand, one mistake could make the spin "unbreakable" before ground contact, and we all know what that means. (Crash for those who can't figure it out. . . the "c" word. . .) Spins are very dangerous, even for skilled and well trained stunt pilots.

Scubapro, I gather from your avatar/signature you're a CFI.......I'm amazed by some of your comments here!

Spins are only "hard on airplanes" if not done properly and within the limitations of the craft (given in the Operator's Manual). For instance, I've flown C-152s and 172s that were certified in the Utility category and approved for spins. I haven't had my own op's manuals out recently (buried in a box somewhere in the basement), but I recall that the 152 had a Utility rating that stipulated a max of 3 spin rotations with the flaps up....ditto for the 172 except there could be no passengers or baggage in the back seat or rear compartment. Any change from these configurations means that spins shouldn't be attempted. Of course, the manuals also spell out the appropriate recovery procedures.

So (to get to the point), IF:
.....thoroughly trained in spins by a qualified CFI;
.....performed in an aircraft certified for spinning; and
.....done at a safe altitude using the proper recovery  techniques.....
spins are not dangerous and will not overstress the aircraft.

I believe in aviation safety as much as the next pilot (the SAFETY FIRST concept gets drummed into every student pilot's head); spins, stalls, or other maneuvers are only as safe or unsafe as the competence of the pilot (in training, skill, judgement....).

As Hagar said, spins used to be a required part of flight training. Can't say that I've done any real research on it,
but I doubt this was changed by the FAA due to any extraordinary statistics about spin accidents. I suspect it was probably an attempt to boost the General Aviation industry (here in the U.S.), by making student flight training less demanding (or seem less intimidating).

[Deputy]

Well, for one thing, I can't take any students out for spin training for one reason - insurance. And, also, if you didnt notice, it also says that spins should be a limited practice (at least thats what our brand new 182 manual says) Planes are not built like they used to be. They are built cheaper so more people can buy a plane.

This does not mean you cannot do any spins, but what it is saying, is don't do many. The leading cause of an airplane's components is stress. Spins are high stress manuevers.  

[Redwing]

Well, I wouldn't notice what it says in a C-182 manual because I don't happen to have one and I haven't flown a 182 in about 9 years! If the operator's manual approves it for spins, great! Spin it (just heed the instructions)!

Planes are not built like they used to be. They are built cheaper so more people can buy a plane.

What!!? I'd say if anything they're built much better, given the significant advancements in construction technology and materials.

BTW, no one's questioning how things are done at your flight school (how'd I know?); the debate here is about the merits of spin training and whether it should be taught.

Again, spins are only exceedingly stressful to the airframe when carelessly executed.....as from improper recovery technique resulting in an extended spin that induces higher loads. When accidents occur from this (whether just structural damage or something more serious), it's attributable to "pilot error"......a term you'll often see as the root cause of most aviation accidents.

[ozzy72]

The Spitfire thing has taken on a life of its own, I'm going to build a full sized replica. Unfortunately things are on hold as we recently lost all our dough in a fraudulent property deal (and the charming people concerned aren't even in jail!), so that has put me back a little, but I'll manage somehow.
I know about the T9 in Britain belonging to Carolyn Grace (it was brought by her husband Nick, who tragically died a couple of years ago), there is a 2 year waiting list to have a go. I hope I'll bag it as a birthday present one of these years. My wife understands my fanaticism, which is why I was allowed to get the replica plans by Marcel Jurca. I've hopefully found a suitable engine with enough power to get me out of the mischief I normally get into Most people think I'm a lunatic in virtual aviation, they should see me in real life!!!
Anyways have a safe flight, and enjoy yourself.

Mark

I saw a web page a short while ago about a couple of blokes here in Oz (Brizzy, I think) that are now in business building, I think, 3/4 size Spits ready for flight or as a kit.
I'll see if I can find the page and I'll let you know. You might get some ideas from it.

P.S. I thought you were in Hungary. have you gone to Britain? Another of your recent posts indicated to me that you were there.  

[ozzy72]

I'm with Brad on this one, I've done spins, and even for an experienced pilot they can be dangerous. And as he says they don't do the plane any good. Sure an SU-29 can take it, but a Cessna?
Unfortunately with learning to fly some realistic economics has to come into it. Certainly safety is of primary importance, and I look upon the PPL as being like the driving licence, it says you are capable of doing the minimum to drive, you should never stop learning. Unfortunately most car drivers think that a driving licence means they are now a road-god! Lets be honest when did any of us last pick up our Highway Code and read it? And we're meant to every year.... So it should be with flying. You've got your PPL and then you should take more advanced lessons to learn those new skills that could save your life one day.

Ozzy

Ozzy,

With regard to the comment about drivers never looking at a "traffic manaul" after they get their license.
I agree 100%. It's surprising how many of my family and friends are ignorant of a few important changes to the road rules here. (I discovered this in a recent family discussion regarding driver training and competence).

I must admit that I only knew because I have to attend the RTA (Roads and Traffic Authority) office to renew my "Disabled Parking" authority every 3 years. While waiting for processing a few months ago, I had a go on the auto-computerised testing system they have there. Of course, questions relating to the recent changes were included.
I think a written test each 3 or 5 years would go a long way towards driver awareness, no only for new regs but the old ones everyone seems to have "forgotten".  ;D

[BFMF]

My flying buddy, who is a CFII told me that it is mandatory for flight instructors to be trained in spin recovery, atleast at the school he works at. Even though PPL students may not be able to have hands on training in spins, doesn't mean that they can't know what to do to prevent and recover from a spin.

btw, I remember that in FS5.1, spins were extrimily easy to induce, why?

[ozzy72]

Andrew I think you'll find on older FSs that due to simpler aerodynamic calculations spins were easier to induce. I still find them easy on 2k2, and in particular love doing them in my Spit!
Brensec I'm still in Hungary, but I'm planning to get on with the build as soon as things get back to normal. Seem to spend a lot of time in court throwing wobblies to no effect! I do get home at least once a year though if I can.
Oh and the Aus company that is doing the 3/4 scale Spitfires is to be located at http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/ as theirs was one option I was looking at, but I'm a big bloke and need a wee bit more room!

Ozzy

[BFMF]

Andrew I think you'll find on older FSs that due to simpler aerodynamic calculations spins were easier to induce. I still find them easy on 2k2, and in particular love doing them in my Spit!

True, you can induce spins in FS2002, but you have to deliberatly be trying. In FS5.1, I remember getting into flat spins in a lear for no reason all the time!

Now what's an accelerated stall? I would like to try it in FS2002

[Craig.]

when you stall faster:)
sorry i just had to :-/

as for spins there is a whole thing in one of my handbooks for learning but unlike most sections it doesnt give a thing for practical work on it.(with instructor of coarse)???

[Redwing]

Now what's an accelerated stall?

when you stall faster

That's basically correct. All that's necessary for a stall to occur is for a wing to exceed the "critical angle of attack".....where the airflow over the wing gets disrupted, losing lift. A plane can stall at any airspeed, and in any attitude; all that's necessary is for the critical AOA to be exceeded!

[Professor Brensec]

That's basically correct. All that's necessary for a stall to occur is for a wing to exceed the "critical angle of attack".....where the airflow over the wing gets disrupted, losing lift. A plane can stall at any airspeed, and in any attitude; all that's necessary is for the critical AOA to be exceeded!

Effectively, this means that if you are in a plane say, with a low landing approach speed and were coming in at say about 65 kts, and you had a tail gust of 20 kts or so, you could end up flat on your face (or some other part) before you knew what happened.

I take it, this is the basic idea.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

Andrew I think you'll find on older FSs that due to simpler aerodynamic calculations spins were easier to induce. I still find them easy on 2k2, and in particular love doing them in my Spit!
Brensec I'm still in Hungary, but I'm planning to get on with the build as soon as things get back to normal. Seem to spend a lot of time in court throwing wobblies to no effect! I do get home at least once a year though if I can.
Oh and the Aus company that is doing the 3/4 scale Spitfires is to be located at http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/ as theirs was one option I was looking at, but I'm a big bloke and need a wee bit more room!

Ozzy

Yeah that's the one. I found it again yesterday and was going to give it to you but..................
I wonder how they are able to use the "Supermarine" business name? Is Supermarine still an active company in the UK?

Now that I've re-read the page and had a bit of a think, it's not very close to owning or flying a Spit. There's really nothing in common except the basic look.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

Just one more thing - on the actual subject.

The P39, according to my literature, was a very dangerous plane when it came to stalls, spins and indeed any loss of control due to the very different balance (CG etc) in the way the engine was mounted.
I have read in some places that the method of getting out of a stall spin was to bend over and put your head between your legs...............
So you could kiss your arse goodbye.

Was there an approved method to recover from a spin, or was it just "pot luck" if you made it?

P.S. I have no trouble recovering in the "Stock" CFS2 Airocobra nor the download P400 "Miss America" (probably same config.). I find it works with full stick forward and the rest of the usual actions.
I haven't got a 1% to try it with. (Is there one?)
I have tried in Fighter Ace a million times, and it seems nothing will work.

Anyone have the "dope" on this plane?