FSWC's back in progress!

[Ashton Lawson]

ah, so I'm right, 3rd party water tends to be better in regards to shimmering.

I guess then these tweaks reduce the shimmering, and 3rd party dudes try doing that too, except they do it in textures, so the two techniques combined produces the best effect.

hmm, interesting.

Nice shots J., and thanks for the sort-of test (for shimmering)

EDIT:
Just to see what you guys think, personally I like it quite a lot, these are icons designed by Hypofx over at FSW.

[NickN]

ah, so I'm right, 3rd party water tends to be better in regards to shimmering.

I guess then these tweaks reduce the shimmering, and 3rd party dudes try doing that too, except they do it in textures, so the two techniques combined produces the best effect.

hmm, interesting.

Nice shots J., and thanks for the sort-of test (for shimmering)

No

3rd party water allows better color match and if you have FEX you can also change the waves too. FEX also has a texture edit section that allows you to rework your own themes

I dont have time to play with the suggestions you made right now. If that will work for this shader file it would be nice. I was not asking for the actual RGB color numbers, I was asking for a separate RGB multiplier, meaning, the color spectrum itself is left alone and it allows each component of the spectrum to be multiplied instead of all at once


but, playing with numbers for color itself may present some added use too

[pwheeler]

Hi guys,

sorry I've been out of it. Cant' get to simviation from work and don't have alot of time in the evenings at the mo.

Anyway, good work everyone.

Nick I have tried multiplying frdot by a fraction in the past.

lerp uses the equation x + s(y - x). So when s = 0 it returns x and when s = 1 it returns y. The 'frdot * frdot' entry is 's' so by multiplying it by a fraction all you're doing is stopping it from reaching 1. Hense you are just stopping it from reaching fresnMax. It should look the same if you just reduced fresnMax.

Also while your mod looks great for the ocean it might not look so great for inland water where you want more reflections.

think of the original interpolation curve as a y = x^2 curve. (assume ^ means 'to the power of')

y = 0.5 * x^2 is a curve that only reaches 0.5 when x =1

y = x^7 is a exaggerated curve.

I think we're getting into personal taste territory here. Probably a mix of the two is whats required.

So what I suggestis that maybe Ashton can include all of these mods into FSWC with a unique name and slider for each.

Maybe 'overall reflection intesity' for your last mod Nick.

err... 'Interpolation curve' for my last one???

'Colour Intesity' for my RGB multiplyer.

Don't know how you can do a preview for each one though to see its effect. Theres' still alot of work ahead.

Nick where are the ENV textures you refer to? I have looked in the past but couldn't find anything relevant.

I will look into the RGB mulitplyer again. Shouldn't be too difficult to extract the separate RGB values and add a mulitplyer for each - although is this getting into FEX and REX territory...?

I also think that the moon glow which I removed should be scalable by  adding a multiplyer rather than removing the line.

Anyway, its starting to look really promising. Far better than the default.

I won't be around for a couple of days. I'm off to hospital for an eye operation tomorrow.  :-/ I won't be able to see much before friday.

Anyway, I'll check back as soon as I can.

Paul

[NickN]

That's strange Paul because I have never been able to get the same result I am seeing by reducing fresnMax. I always ended up chasing either the reflections or the shimmer in one place or another.

At the same time I did think it was strange you had not worked that fraction given your apparent knowledge of the code.

I will look at it further as soon as I get more time but I am almost positive I have been down the fresnMax/min road and was never able to get both/all under control with the same variable which is why when you threw out the multiple frdot, I thought perhaps a defined value may yeild a controlled return, and, I do see what you are saying about the result but I am not in tune with shader code and how one code line affects the entire return.

I do not like shimmers, at all, and although I can deal with the reflections from land (without shimmers) I do not like the clouds in the water at all.

And unless there is a way to work this based on the variable of altitude, I do not think there is a defined answer for everyone and every situation.

And if you are out over an ocean there is no reason to run high reflections anyway because there is nothing to sea  ::)  ;D

The ENV textures are in Scenery\world\texture

env_lowmoon.bmp
env_highnoon.bmp
env_overcast.bmp <--- this one is used in any weather other than clear skies, fair weather and in some cases cold fronts unless there is a layer of haze called, then, depending on how thick the layer overcast.bmp is called.

etc, etc


As for FEX, no, they only provide textures. What I am after is a way to fine tune the color boost from the shader.


ouch, sorry about the eye surgery and good luck with that!

[Ashton Lawson]

In case you missed from the preview page, I think I know how to set the RGB thingy.

With a float3 variable, the variable has three parts to it.

[Ashton Lawson]

Hey guys,

I've just done a Seattle shot, full settings, 8FPS, lol, of Default, and then Paul's water.

[pwheeler]

Hi guys,

just a quick one before I go under the knife!!

Looking at those pictures, our mods do seem to emphasise the wave animation. Maybe a more subtle animation would calm things down a bit.

Nick, all the lerp/frdot line does is interpolate between fresnMax and fresnMin. In the original its a curve (frdot * frdot). Frdot is related to the angle relative to the normal - a number between 0 and 1. I think 0 is vertical (fresnMin is displayed) and 1 is horizontal (fresnMax is displayed). By mulitplying it by a fraction all that happens is the shader thinks you are slightly higher than you actually are, thus showing a different mix of fresnMin and Max and never actually reaching fresnMax if you are horizontal.

Of course I'm no expert in shaders (although I'm not too bad at maths!) so I could be talking total b******t. I just researched the lerp command on the internet and worked out the rest.

Anyway, I agree about the shimmering. Its annoying. I think though that a higher antialiasing and/or anisotropic combination ahould reduce this. Of course a higher res would too.

Ashton, I saw your ideas for the RGB thing. The only thing I'm worried about is I remember during the original mod being made Ingvaar complaining that he could only add a few extra line to the shader code. I think the shader limits how many commands you can use and this shader code is already very near maximum. Again I could be quite wrong with that!

Anyway, I think the best thing would be to add all the variables we've come up with into FSWC and let the user decide whats right for them. I'm certain that different gfx card/settings will show them all differently anyway!

Right I'm off to have my eye prodded and poked! I'll try and drop by in a day or two.

Paul

[Ashton Lawson]

Good luck with teh surgery again, and don't be freaked out.  I assume you won't feel a thing, or, you won't feel pain at least.

K, i wrote something long and elaborate before, but IE closed for some reason, so I'll keep this a bit shorter.

the reason why the waves look more emphasized is because by changing the curve, it basically makes the blending more violent, thus making waves look bigger.  i could easily tie in an auto adjustment feature, however, that'd only work for FSX defaults, as opposed to many who have payware stuff like X Graphics, or FEX, or the soon to be REX.

so, it'd be best I only provide all the variables.

Also, I've been experimenting by mixing and matching Nick's * 0.25 thing with your curve adjustments.  the effects produced by different settings are quite different, and interesting, so i can including both, but we'll have to make it so that the powers are done in brackets, then nick's final multiplyer, or honestly more like divider is then performed last, to tone down the curve, dropping it in a sense.

also, my next test for  FSWC, i'll add all the sliders i can possibly think of, and i'll also add a set of water tint RGB sliders.  they can be removed if we are unable to change any multiplyers.

finally, did we ever find a way of toning down the specular reflections and stuff?  i can't remember, i had a way in my origianl FSWC, but that's SP1, so i'm not sure about now with SP2.

right, back to work, and good luck again with teh surgery 8-).

[J.]

Str1ker what did you change the variables to in your test?
im curous to what the middle of the default and your settings would look like on the RGB color line

good luck with the surgery paul

[Ashton Lawson]

Str1ker what did you change the variables to in your test?
im curous to what the middle of the default and your settings would look like on the RGB color line

good luck with the surgery paul

The test was simply Default config, to Paul's Config, but I didn't change any colour, only the fresnMin/Max and place seven frdot s.

Okay, another preview, I hope you like the interface now, because it took me a long time to do it, and it was really tedious as well:



Like it?

[J.]

thanks striker, i was just having a play around with the variables, got it looking pretty good atm on default water however im interesting in this bit

Code: Select all

// Define RGB Multiplyer
float3 RGBMult = float3(1,1.01,1);

//Multiply RGB
RGB = RGB * RGBMult;

just had a quick scan through the file and couldnt find any of those entires? do i add them in? if so where?

cheers
J.

[Ashton Lawson]

thanks striker, i was just having a play around with the variables, got it looking pretty good atm on default water however im interesting in this bit

Code: Select all

// Define RGB Multiplyer
float3 RGBMult = float3(1,1.01,1);

//Multiply RGB
RGB = RGB * RGBMult;

just had a quick scan through the file and couldnt find any of those entires? do i add them in? if so where?

cheers
J.

Oh, no no, those are just examples of how the float3 kind of value works.  It is, in fact, how most variables work, when they require special definitions.  All I changed was the frdot curve thing, so frdot^7, and fresnMin/Max to wat Paul had it as.

also, Paul was using FEX water, I was demonstrating default water...

[J.]

ah kk

[NickN]

Nick, all the lerp/frdot line does is interpolate between fresnMax and fresnMin. In the original its a curve (frdot * frdot). Frdot is related to the angle relative to the normal - a number between 0 and 1. I think 0 is vertical (fresnMin is displayed) and 1 is horizontal (fresnMax is displayed). By mulitplying it by a fraction all that happens is the shader thinks you are slightly higher than you actually are, thus showing a different mix of fresnMin and Max and never actually reaching fresnMax if you are horizontal.

Of course I'm no expert in shaders (although I'm not too bad at maths!) so I could be talking total b******t. I just researched the lerp command on the internet and worked out the rest.

Anyway, I agree about the shimmering. Its annoying. I think though that a higher antialiasing and/or anisotropic combination ahould reduce this. Of course a higher res would too.

I have jacked it up pretty high Paul, 16-32x @ 1920x1200 and the shimmer remains. Perhaps a resolution above 2000x is needed because AA @ 16-32x is not efficient at 1900.

Thanks for the rundown on the code and I see where you are saying the fraction places the output the same as fresnMax being reduced, but, I am still not seeing the exact same result on the screen by reducing it and increasing the curve.

I got the math down, I just dont get the entire relationship to the shader code and how it plays through. Looking at my screen the results I am seeing are not simply in line with a different mix of fresnMin and Max and I think there is more to it than that, however, I did see that changing the wave theme does also play into it and therefore what I am seeing here may be a result of differences in water theme(s)because I do not run default. I am also thinking color balance is playing into the mix too which is why I inquired about having the ability to tweak those values.

It is possible what the math/code suggests is exactly as it is but since there are a large list of variables in color/wave patters, drivers/settings and video adapters, the results may not appear the same.

If I could get rid of the clouds from the water I would not care about the shorelines other than the shimmers. At that point the shoreline reflections dictate the settings instead of trying to fight 2 issues at once in which one affects the other greatly.

I am slammed with GEX right now so I dont have a lot of time to tinker. We are trying to get the next GEX update out within the next 2 weeks.


You take care and I sincerely hope all goes well with your surgery.

[Ashton Lawson]

Violent Waves:


Lighter Water:


Hazy Ain't It:


No Reflections: