Doing 16kt crosswind landings in a Cub..but...

[skunker]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to perfect my crosswind landings in a J3 Cub before I go out and do the real thing once I start training.

I can land perfectly on the runway centerline by doing the traditional "upwind wing down, opposite rudder pressure" technique to counter the crosswinds, but I"m having trouble keeping the airplane from ground looping after touchdown!

Any tips?

[macca22au]

Fly something with tricycle undercarriage!

[Mobius]

Crosswind landings are extremely difficult in FS.  I have no idea why, but they are, that's how it's always been.  I've landed in 25 kt crosswinds in real-life with (relatively) little trouble, but when I try to land with even 10 kts cross-wind I'll touch down and go flying off one side of the runway or another.  Although, I think FS might have a default setting that the yoke controls the rudder on the ground, so when you land with the yoke rolled into the wind, once the wheels touch, the nose wheel steers with the yoke.  I've forgotten where the setting is, but I seem to remember it helping, or I might just be crazy.

[Slotback]

That always happens to me with the J3 Cub. It doesn't in the Real Air Citabria.

Try another plane... or get rid of wind when flying the J3.

[ozzy72]

FS is a tad unrealistic, the only way to avoid the ground loop once the wheels are down is to center the rudder quickly then use small amounts to keep you on the tarmac

[Fozzer]

..My tip, to avoid increased Insurance Premiums.......

ALWAYS come to a complete standstill before turning off, or on to, the Taxiway!!

Take great care to manoeuvre at very low speeds.

....and always stop before changing direction... ...!

Paul...Tail-draggers (Piper Cub) have their Main Wheels much to close together for my liking!...  :'(.......!

[macca22au]

I've never read the handling notes for a Cub but I bet a 16 knot crosswind must be close to, or past its limit.

[Brett_Henderson]

Smooth, crosswind landing in the sim without yoke and pedals is near impossible. You cannot develop or learn to use precise rudder control with a twisting joystick. Even with pedals, it's much more difficult than the real thing (but it IS great practice.. get's you used to the idea of cross-controlling).

Taxiing and ground control of tail-draggers also requires the pedals. With just a yoke; you've got "all or nothing" differential braking. You NEED to have subtle control over both the rudder and differential brakes to taxi a tail-dragger... even moreso in the sim.

The setting that Mobuis mentioned is under "Realism"... it's a checkbox for, "Autorudder". If you have a yoke/pedals, and have the realism settings cranked up, and have Autorudder UNchecked, you can keep from ground-looping. With Autorudder checked, it's impossible to use the ailerons and the rudder, independently in the air for crosswind landing (or slipping to the runway) (let alone in complete cross-control, like you'd need on the ground to prevent ground-looping).

[Hagar]

Taxiing and ground control of tail-draggers also requires the pedals. With just a yoke; you've got "all or nothing" differential braking. You NEED to have subtle control over both the rudder and differential brakes to taxi a tail-dragger... even moreso in the sim.

What about the many taildraggers without brakes of any kind?* I spent almost every day of the first two years of my working life taxying Tiger Moths in all conditions. The secret is to taxi with the stick back on the stop to keep the tail down & use full rudder with small bursts of throttle to turn, rather like a boat. Hold the upwind aileron UP to prevent the wing lifting. In some cases you had to turn the long way round in the opposite direction to end up facing the way you wanted. Not sure about the Cub but I've found that some 3rd party taildraggers in FS behave in much the same way & I've had no trouble taxying them with my old MS Sidewinder Pro joystick with twist-grip rudder control. I dislike yokes & have never tried rudder pedals in FS.

Biplanes tend to be the most difficult to handle in any sort of wind. High-wing types come a close second. Our club rules at the time stated that in winds over 20 knots our Tigers could not be taxied without a man on the wing tip. This rule applied to everyone including our highly experienced Chief Flying Instructor.

I've never read the handling notes for a Cub but I bet a 16 knot crosswind must be close to, or past its limit.

Agreed. I expect that would depend on the model of Cub. I believe the official wind limit for all types of taildraggers at most flying schools/clubs is now 10 knots. I've seen Cubs operated in much higher winds, even the original J-3. I once watched a Piper Colt end up on its nose & wingtip while being run up crosswind. He was very lucky not to completely overturn it.

*PS. These would usually be fitted with tail skids & land/take off directly into wind on grass runways.

[Brett_Henderson]

What about the many taildraggers without brakes of any kind? I spent every day of the first two years of my working life taxying Tiger Moths in all conditions. The secret is to taxi with the stick back on the stop to keep the tail down & use full rudder with small bursts of throttle to turn, rather like a boat. Hold the upwind aileron UP to prevent the wing lifting. In some cases you had to turn the long way round in the opposite direction to end up facing the way you wanted. Not sure about the Cub but I've found that some 3rd party taildraggers in FS behave in much the same way & I've had no trouble taxying them with my old MS Sidewinder Pro joystick with twist-grip rudder control. I dislike yokes & have never tried rudder pedals in FS.

You're right..

[Hagar]

You're right..  I should have qualified that as, "You cannot taxi an independent brake-equipped tail-dragger in the sim, as you would for real, without those independent brakes"..  I should also de-qualify myself, as having almost no real tail-dragger experience.  

That sounds like a fun method to try. And it kinda makes the point, that without the pedals, you have to employ unorthodox (model specific) techniques while taxiing.

Those 'unorthodox' methods are still used on many types of taildragger. I defer to your far greater real life experience Brett but do know what I'm talking about regarding taildraggers. I should stress that the vintage types I'm familiar with (like Tiger Moths) are generally operated from grass runways so would not normally land crosswind. On types with no brakes the friction from a  tail skid is the only means of slowing them down. Most Moths have a steerable skid attached to the rudder. This makes precise control on the ground less important than with more modern types operating from hard runways.

[skunker]

Smooth, crosswind landing in the sim without yoke and pedals is near impossible. You cannot develop or learn to use precise rudder control with a twisting joystick. Even with pedals, it's much more difficult than the real thing (but it IS great practice.. get's you used to the idea of cross-controlling).

Brett,
I have a twisting joystick (Microsoft Sidewinder) but I don't use it for rudders (i have autorudder off too), I use pedals. So, you are saying I need to get a joystick that does not twist at all? I noticed that the I am basically flooring the joystick sideways when doing these crosswind landings--I wonder if I need a newer joystick (mine was purchased in the late 90s).

[skunker]

In the book, "Stick & Rudder" which is probably the best book about flying taildraggers (it's mainly for the Cub), the author says that one should land at an alternate airport that has a runway directly into the wind, if possible. Of course, back then when the book was written, a lot more airports had WW1-style grass strips (aerodromes) where one could land in any direction they wanted.

I'm currently devouring anything I can find in regards to flying taildraggers....I won't touch a tricycle airplane until I master the tailwheel for fear of getting my instincts messed up when I do the real thing.

Also, I found this cool video on Youtube that shows a guy learning how to land a Cub (there's a little crosswind) and he hooked up his mic so we can hear the communication between him and his CFI--it's great stuff and he really does make it look easy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jwK39Prmhg

[Brett_Henderson]

Brett,
I have a twisting joystick (Microsoft Sidewinder) but I don't use it for rudders (i have autorudder off too), I use pedals. So, you are saying I need to get a joystick that does not twist at all? I noticed that the I am basically flooring the joystick sideways when doing these crosswind landings--I wonder if I need a newer joystick (mine was purchased in the late 90s).

Oh my

[DaveSims]

In a Cub, just land across the runway into the wind.  :D  15 or more knots you can almost hover the Cub anyway.