For Everyone Having DX10 and DX9 SP2 Problems

[reider]

Got to agree, one or two people lately have been trying to have a pop at Nick.  I see a guy who freely spends his own time to advise and help people.  If he doesn`t know the answer, is not sure of the answer or needs to reinforce his knowledge he will spend yet more of this time freely deciphering/exploring/investigating the available information.  The world would be a sorry place without him.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all, but especially to Nick N and thanks.....

Reider
AKA Steve

[SubZer0]

[quote]Got to agree, one or two people lately have been trying to have a pop at Nick.

[golfcart22]

Nick,

Thanks for this info and thanks for making me a little depressed about spending so much money on NVidia.  One question though...

Do you have any experience with SLI with 8800 cards?  Does running 2 really help performance in FSX?

Thanks
Tony

[NickN]

[quote]Nick,

Thanks for this info and thanks for making me a little depressed about spending so much money on NVidia.

[Milo1272]

What about crossfire?  I've read that it, unlike sli, will allow greater graphics on multiple monitors.  Is that true?  If so, would it make it worthwhile?

Thanks,

Milo

[NickN]

Crossfire is indeed different and I would wait for CrossfireX which requires the new motherboard designs just starting to hit the market. It will require CrossfireX certified cards the new AMD chipset or the newer intel chipsets to use CrossfireX

Original Crossfire was the stepping stone for the next phase of product

[NickN]

Here is a comment located in Phil Taylors blog from someone who has been having FSX issues for quite a while. After SP2 was released he posted this:

I thought that too... being DX10 as the culprit but I took a chance and installed Crysis and bang out of the box... it's all as smooth as silk.

I also found just before I cross fired my system...

I had 1 x Radeon 3870, which left my (now) old 8800 Ultra dead in the water with both Image Quality, performance and FSX ran rather smooth...

As I said.. the people running the orginal 8800 silicone runs are the ones affected by the issues more than anyone else. I still have my hot-rod'd 8800GTX which is running faster than the ultra but the difference in how FSX runs on that overpriced POS compared to the newer ATi card is night and day in many respects.

I replace my hardware sometimes twice a year with what I do in testing. I still have the tower which runs the 8800 but I will probably replace that card as soon as the newer cards hit the streets in Feb.

[Fr. Bill]

As I said.. the people running the orginal 8800 silicone runs are the ones affected by the issues more than anyone else. I still have my hot-rod'd 8800GTX which is running faster than the ultra but the difference in how FSX runs on that overpriced POS compared to the newer ATi card is night and day in many respects.

Nick, have you seen what Phil posted at avsim.com regarding how nVidia speed bins their 8800 chips?
This really explains a lot...

http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az= ... pic#430018

======================================
Yes, graphics cards make a difference.

Performance is as good as the weakest link in the chain.

The IHVs make 4 lines of cards:
1)Ultra for the enthusiast at super high prices
2)High-end at high prices
3)Mid-range at mid prices
4)Low-end at low prices.

For nVidia, that translates to:
1)8800 GTX overclocked 768m monstor
2)8800 GTS 512m, 8800 GT 2nd gen
3)8600
4)8400

The manufacturing process is not perfect, and there are defects in almost every wafer burnt by the FAB. The IHVs have come up with a clever way to avoid having to throw as many chips out due to defects.

Typically the chips are manufactured in quadrants, with the shader pipes and stream processors arrayed around a central memory controller. There is a single die design for all variants using this approach.

When the wafers come out of the FAB, the parts are speed bined, by that I mean they are tested at the maximum rated performance to see if the part works. If it doesnt work at that clock, they reduce the clock until they see if it does work. If it does not work at all, the chip is discarded. If it does work, the level at which it speed bins determines what variant the part can be sold as.

If the part doesnt speed bin out for Ultra, they try it for High. Typically High has the same number of shader units and stream processors as Ultra and the same memory width but with lower clocks ( less memory bandwidth ) and less memory.

If it doesnt speed bin out for High, they turn 1 quadrant off ( now 3/4 of the top end ) and try to bin it as a Mid-range. With fewer shader units and stream processors. at a lower clock, and with less memory and less memory bus width which means less memory bandwidth.

If that doesnt work, they turn 2 quadrants off ( now 1/2 of the top end ) and try at Low-end. With fewer shader units and stream processors. at a lower clock, and with less memory and sometimes less memory bus width which means less memory bandwidth. Much less.

Low-end is really low-end, this is no joke. There are reviews of the 1st gen DX10 parts that show low-end DX10 performs worse than DX9 parts. Really.

You have an 8300 which is below an 8400. Who knows, that might only be 1/4 of the die active. 25% of an Ultra or High-end.

With that low a graphics card, the CPU is no longer the bottleneck.

You get what you pay for.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor
PM, Core Platform
Aces Studio, MGS

[NickN]

I was aware of the process in manufacture/QC which is similar to other processor and IC production runs. That is why 2 people can have the same product (cpu, memory, gpu) and one can high clock it stable where the other can not clock very far at all.


I was under the impression from my contact at Nvidia later release cores were not from the same run as the originals as Phils post would suggest.

There were changes made in later runs to fix issues only a core design change would address.

[reider]

Must pass this on, now you all reminded me.  I have several books on MS and the like upstairs in the Office, books like 'people in the IT industry and who influenced them' (not the title of a book).  In one, thousands of people allegedly complained of Intel chip faults.  Many many checks were performed and they couldn`t pinpoint the source of the faults, all had to be recalled and it was quite a loss in revenue.  It turned out that one employee took his job to the latter on 'goods in'.  Incoming boxes of wafers say were marked contents=1000, and he opened some to doublecheck the amounts.  The same boxes of wafers that were only to be opened under sterile lab conditions.......  ::)  ;)

Reider

[Fr. Bill]

I was aware of the process in manufacture/QC which is similar to other processor and IC production runs. That is why 2 people can have the same product (cpu, memory, gpu) and one can high clock it stable where the other can not clock very far at all.


I was under the impression from my contact at Nvidia later release cores were not from the same run as the originals as Phils post would suggest.

There were changes made in later runs to fix issues only a core design change would address.

Nick, I believe Phil is only referring to the original run of the chips, which still accounts for ~90% of the products available for sale...

[HugoCampos]

You know what's weird about all this? I have an HD2900XT w/ Catalyst 7.12 installed in my Vista x64 OS and I still get flickering textures, mostly on taxiway lines and runways. I've tried different drivers, changing all the settings in the Catalyst CC (AA on and off, AAA on and off, Catalyst AI on, Standard and Advanced, AF on and of, etc) and still the problem doesn't seem to go away.
Well, all this to tell you guys that it ain't just Nvidia users that are having problems. Anyways, if anyone knows anything that can be done to fix this, I would be very thankful

[ETaylor]

I do not understand all of your jargon on this post, (I'm still learning this whole FS thing!) but from what I got out of it, many people who have Nvidia cards are experiencing problems even with the SP's or the Acceleration.
I am one of those people. I have the 8800GTS and the Acceleration. I'm still having problems- like the ones described in Nick's post- flashing textures, crashing, poor performance occasionally. My response to those who have Nvidia cards and do not have problems is, well, there are people who ARE having problems. I hope we can solve these problems!
A local computer building company made our machine, and they seemed to think Nvidia is one of the best, which is what I thought until I saw this post. I understand many others thought this as well.
I also installed the new drivers. I have one waiting now, that came out today, I'll see what happens with this new driver.
If Nvidia is not the company to buy from, (at least not at this moment), what would be a good alternative? I am asking this becaue our machine is still under warrenty, and the company we got it from it very helpful, and would be happy to replace our card.
I also belive that a company like Microsoft would have tried extremely hard to make certain that there were no bugs in FSX before it was released. My point- I doubt the problems come from the program itself.
Just my .02.

[Solid]

I must admit that I am now in very good terms with FSX-Accelerator.....it is running smoothly still on a swing of 18-37 fps, no flickers worth mention, and no hick-ups from it of any real worry, all sliders 98%up  except traffic which is around 35%..........Lucky?...I guess so.....so to all of you still in the "soup".....good luck!!!! eventually, like me, you will get lucky(?)and you will fly tranquile in great VFR skies that only FSX can give you---may it be soon.... ......I did have a dislike for the Nvidia 8800GTS until the beta 169.09 then 169.25 driver came along, really good I would say. 8-)

[Microsoft Corporation]

Hi Solid:

This tip on the driver is "gold", thanks for sharing.  I just bought a 8800GTS 640Mb and have been desperate to avoid "driver hell".

Cheers,
Dan

I must admit that I am now in very good terms with FSX-Accelerator.....it is running smoothly still on a swing of 18-37 fps, no flickers worth mention, and no hick-ups from it of any real worry, all sliders 98%up  except traffic which is around 35%..........Lucky?...I guess so.....so to all of you still in the "soup".....good luck!!!! eventually, like me, you will get lucky(?)and you will fly tranquile in great VFR skies that only FSX can give you---may it be soon.... ......I did have a dislike for the Nvidia 8800GTS until the beta 169.09 then 169.25 driver came along, really good I would say. 8-)