A plea to Aces/Microsoft

[Mobius]

Frankly I have little time for people who aren't prepared to update their PC's every couple of years in this day & age. Don't upgrade your hardware - stick with the appropriate software & stop complaining.

Very well put Pete, I think that's exactly the case.  People want the new software with the old hardware and that just won't work - in any situation.

[Groundbound1]

Frankly I have little time for people who aren't prepared to update their PC's every couple of years in this day & age. Don't upgrade your hardware - stick with the appropriate software & stop complaining.

Very well put Pete, I think that's exactly the case.

[Camel_Moe]

The idea of FS without freeware scares me.
It wouldn't cause me to stop flying, but I would do alot less of it for sure.
Heck, I can count the payware I have on 4 fingers:
Shockwave power pack, shockwave power pack 2, Lago Ultralights, and some utility I bought years ago for adding moving trains to FS98.
Freeware however is the backbone of my sim. It gives me my own personal aviation museum.
I've been coming to simviation since at least when I was flying FS98, and mabey 95. Either way, I started coming here sometime back in the 1990's. I don't even think this place had a forum when I started.
Point is, I gotta agree with Pete, I don't think this series would be nearly has popular without freeware for sure.

[Fr. Bill]

My concern with the future of FS is the ability of FREEWARE developers to create. Without the mass interest they help generate FS almost certainly wouldn't even exist or if it did it would be a minority interest. Most of the payware today is created by once well known freeware developers. Freeware is THE absolute important factor on the popularity of the FS series. Has been. Will be. If we are down to payware add-ons mainly - the vast majority of followers will drift away.

I will readily agree with the part regarding "FREEWARE" only insofar as the fact that both the tools and learning curve to use those have been exponentially increased in complexity.

As for the last though, if you were to add up the total number of unique individuals registered on all the various flightsim forums and newgroups, that total would still remain but a tiny fraction of the number of unique individuals who've purchased any given version of flightsimulator.  The simple fact is that the vast majority of folks who buy any flightsim title are completely unaware of the the world wide flightsim community, and totally oblivious to any "freeware" releases being available.

[pete]

The simple fact is that the vast majority of folks who buy any flightsim title are completely unaware of the the world wide flightsim community, and totally oblivious to any "freeware" releases being available.

Hey Bill,

I'm not sure that that's credible.... I'd say a lot are not aware - but they are not the mass that forms the 'popularity'

Tell me a sim that has had the durability of FS? Early/mid '80's I think it began. I got my 1st in about '87 & as soon as I'd done the default I began to search for extras. Being a real pilot at the time I couldn't believe the realism of the Cessna  ... & that you could actually then fly a LearJet!! I was hooked. I wanted more ..

I also used Flight Unlimited. Great but limited to the SF area & seemingly no addons. Hit the shelf.

FS is a program you grow within - then (can ) grow beyond. It's the 'beyond' bit, I would argue, that gives it the popularity it enjoys today.

[Camel_Moe]

[quote]

As for the last though, if you were to add up the total number of unique individuals registered on all the various flightsim forums and newgroups, that total would still remain but a tiny fraction of the number of unique individuals who've purchased any given version of flightsimulator.

[richardd43]

[quote]As Brett pointed out, the cost to upgrade for MSFS has really not changed over the last 10 years. Back then the technology was slow but very expensive. Considering a gig of memory was over the top in cost back in 1998, what we spend today for a gig is ridiculously cheap in comparison and it

[Felix/FFDS]

The simple fact is that the vast majority of folks who buy any flightsim title are completely unaware of the the world wide flightsim community, and totally oblivious to any "freeware" releases being available.

Hey Bill,

I'm not sure that that's credible.... I'd say a lot are not aware - but they are not the mass that forms the 'popularity' {/quote]


If I recall the statistics correctly, FS-X has actually been selling better than FS9 had, within the same period of release, and more importantly, bringing in NEW users to the sim.

The fans - and developers - push the sim, and have taken it to new heights.  The added complexity and learning curve that developers are facing are, in a way, the result of the fans'  own desires to want to do more.  I remember when we marveled at actually being able to see the landing gear "up"  or "down"  ... now we demand the the brake lines flex when the brakes are applied!

[NickN]

There he is

Sorry Bill I typo'ed you last name as Learning instead of Leaming

it looks the same on the screen without my glasses on            :P



FSX is really just getting started. With all the issues around the OS delays, hardware delays, driver problems, etc it had a bit of a slow start but now that it is finalized I think we are going to see FSX come to life in 2008. Hardware will be here and so will the add-on devs who can now complete their projects knowing a patch is not going to wipe out their work. That and the upgrades SP2 brings to the table which will allow more creative add-ons be developed.

FSX was not like FS9. FS9 was FS8 with added weather and other features. FSX brings new elements into the mix and then it expanded into DX10 support.

When you think about it, FSX was just 'truly' released as of Acceleration/SP2

[NickN]

I see Phil has elaborated on the ESPv1 projet a bit more

ESP is a separately versioned, side-by-side application. With an SDK that targets that separately versioned, side-by-side application.

And issues like:

1) Branding ( being brand neutral ),
2) EULA ( licensed for commercial purposes that are expressly forbidden in the FSX consumer EULA ), and
3) IP ( commercial reship rights for all content )

taken care of for the commercial customer to take the platform, add their solution, and ship it in volume.
"

Most of the content provided in FSX is present in ESP, now with commercial reship rights. That is the canvas commercial developers will start with.

ESP has a EULA that enables you to ship your solution commercially. We found many organizations were already using FSX in violation of the entertainment-side EULA. ESP is a vehicle to convert them from gray to white.

The UI is only "simply reskinnable" meaning you cannot reconfigure dialogs or add controls or anything like that. And there is only 1 version of ESP per machine enabled given we expect complete hw-sw vertical solutions.

The source code is not provided, so you cannot develop your own "Ship Simulator" unless it works within current platform capabilities or what can be accomplished using the SDK or developer cleverness.

What you could do is exploit existing platform capabilities to provide solutions to vertical industries.

An example is familiarity training in the military.

You could take recent ( like after a bombing raid ) satellite imagery, use the Vexcel/Virtual Earth techniques to create 3D objects from them, use the SDK to create custom mesh and terrain textures as well, use those assets to generate a custom scenery for a mission area and then use that scenery area and the ESP platform to train your troops for a sweep of the area so they would have a 3D mental image of the area ahead of the sweep with the most recent craters being accurately modeled.

Or do something similar for pilots being tasked to a new airport in a global hotspot and make scenery developed similarly to the above available to pilots so they had more than just charts to familiarize themselves with the new airport. And they can practice in 24/7 with variable weather conditions.

There are lots of scenarios like this that are possible within the existing capabilities of the platform. Repeat - ESP v1.0 is targeting scenarios already enabled by the base platform. Modulo work by 3rd parties ala what PMDG and other top-end developers do today to extend the existing systems.

And, as I said, we are keeping it small at first. We are not going to be working with hundreds or thousands of developers, yet, like we do on the entertainment side.

The solution providers, of course, are free to work with who-ever to generate content for their solutions. That is where the initial opportunity for current developers is, partnering with ESP solution providers.

It is much, much harder to crack the government and military markets than you think. John Venema of OrbX talked about this problem at DevCon/FanCon where he couldnt get the Australian military to work with him even given how excellent the OrbX scenery is because OrbX is too small and wasnt on any approved contractor lists. If you havent worked in that space before, it is a different beast.

Small steps at first, larger steps later. It is all part of the process of growth.



http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor
PM, Core Platform
Aces Studio, MGS

So ESP is indeed based on the FSX engine, which does in part use elements of previous FS versions but there was a need to try and put certain companies/establishments in the "white" with respect to the FSX EULA. ESP will allow them to function legally and give them better access to the core if I read this correctly.



And with the suggestion of a ESPv2...

[PhilTaylor]

Speculation on future engine features is just that, so lets please remember that and try to not read too much into anything I say. I know the temptation is there, but try to resist the "dark side".  :)

[NickN]

I know Phil, I know... I thought that comment may get some attention, especially the 64bit suggestion

[NickN]

[quote]I have read through this whole thing, and if it's possible, I am now solidly in the middle. lol
Make FSX run on todays machine, and essentially all you have is FS9.

[Fr. Bill]

The simple fact is that the vast majority of folks who buy any flightsim title are completely unaware of the the world wide flightsim community, and totally oblivious to any "freeware" releases being available.

Hey Bill,

I'm not sure that that's credible.... I'd say a lot are not aware - but they are not the mass that forms the 'popularity'

Hi Pete!

Let's not kid ourselves, shall we?

[Brett_Henderson]

Here's one way to look at it...

When I first started simming, this all looked like a bizarre, alternate universe. Not the simming or simmers, but that MS would let anyone have this much access to the inner-workings of one of their products.

Is an add-on aircraft to MSFS, more like a PowerPoint demonstration ? .. or is it an added function to the PowerPoint application ? Are people, for their own use, allowed to add modules to PowerPoint.. or companies SELL added modules for PowerPoint ? People can readily make and share very complex PP documents, but can they sell them ?

Those questions aside (because I really am ignorant there)..