FSX Official Beta Testers NDA Lifted!

[PisTon]

Yeah, but I doubt blogging is going to make me buy a product. If it does make someone buy a product they must be smoking something.

About the forums, that just makes them know what we want, and if that's propaganda, then I guess tell_fs@microsft.com is propaganda too

[NicksFXHouse]

Roger,

I respect your work and contributions to the hobby. I also respect your opinions, some of which carry some merit in reference to communication between the development team and the public. There is always the aspect of good business relations in order to generate interest, which flows down into sales.

What I do not agree with is the slant that the communication that is now becoming open with the FS development team is some type of mastermind plan to infiltrate the forums and take control of the hobby.

For years one of the biggest complaints is that the FS development teams did not provide enough communication in order to clarify the SDK

[x_jasper]

~S~ Nick

I think his point is that forums / blogspots etc are realised as a resource which can be and certainly are infiltrated, as is rapidly becoming clear on this one.

One viewpoint or another aside for a moment, this is not what these forums were created for, impartiallity(and reputation) just goes straight out the window.

Jasper

[Katahu]

Like I said before, I feel sorry for the ACES team after seeing all this negative wrap from the community. Like I said before, they did almost everything we asked and all we do is accuse them of conspiracy. What's next? They give us the source code and we start accusing them more? :-/

[RollerBall]

I'm sorry folks, I know I said that I'd spouted my last word on this but the points Nick, who I greatly respect, has raised do need some sort of reply.

Nick, there's a difference between a genuinely personal blog and a company sponsored one. It's become very apparent that a lot (most?) of the FS blogging is officially sponsored by (and therefore supported by) Microsoft. As such it has become, I'd say by design, you'd say by accident and we'll agree to disagree on that, an arm of Microsoft's global marketing effort.

I personally am not comfortable with that - especially given the nature of a very large proportion of the FS market who are younger, highly impressionable and more likely to be influenced by what I perceive to be a slightly insidious marketing tool.

'Rumours' in a 'blog' soon become fact - and there's no advertising standards authority to ensure that what is put out is true, unlike with proper advertising. Also a posting with a title like this one gives the impression that there's a handful of dedicated programmers toiling by oil lamplight in their programming sheds dedicated to bringing their next offering to their mates - the flightsimming community.

That could not be further from the truth. These guys, the 'Team' we keep hearing about, are working for a global conglomerate on a commercial product which they plan to be highly profitable and make lots of money for it and their shareholders.

The 'communication' you talk about has now gone way beyond what might have been reasonable with the launch of any new product (and I've done one or two in my time). As the launch date approaches, it's now become total hype.

You and many others may not share my concern. OK that's you opinion and I respect that. But for me it comes from the same place as from where kids download ringtones for their phones and then find they've taken up a contract to receive a new one every week for a year. It smells a little bit of being based on spin and deception and for me that's not quite right with this hobby that up to now has given me and many others such a lot of fun.

It's all become far too commercial and big business, for me anyway.

[x_jasper]

Well said!!

I couldn't have even hoped to put that better myself.

Jasper.

[cleobis]

I simply cannot believe all this nonsense!!!

You guys spend years saying that M$ isn't open enough, that they don't listen to the users, that the ACES team is not present enough in this forums to hear our opinions,etc,etc....

Now that we have (and I'm much appreciated) guys like tdragger in this forum, answering questions (whenever possible), M$ giving all the SDK's the day FSX is released, allowing ACES team to have blogs and talk about the program, getting the world press (not just american) to try the product first hand, etc,etc...you all start with conspiracy theories that M$ is just doing this to promote themselves an whatever!!!1

For the 1st time they give us a demo, stating very clearly that is almost an alpha version and that there will be bugs in it, and what people do???

Complain about the demo saying that M$ shouldn't have given us a demo with bugs....please....it's just to much....almost like children that are never happy!!!

I cannot agree with this!!!

Of course M$ will allways try to promote their products, they are a business and no matter how much money they make, they will allways try to make more! anyone that doesn't understand this is not in touch with the real world!!

the only chance we have new FS's is that FSX sells well enough for M$ to be convinced that it IS good business, because the day FS series starts to loose money they will stop it!!!

Please cut some slack, if not to M$, to the ACES team, or else we will not hear from them again for the next 10 years!!

If I was one of the guys from ACES, after hearing all this stuff I would wonder if it is any good to try and reach the comunity!!

why try to get in touch with the users if they are never happy and just see your effort as a "somewhat devious" way of M$ to get your money???

Guys just be calm and try to see all sides of the subject!!!

I am very happy of the way M$ has done everything regarding the promotion/info about FSX...

For the 1st time I see ACES team members in our forums, answering our question and hearing us (at least in an official way, they may have been there before but never portraid themselves as ACES team members)...

Now a message for ACES:

Guys very well done for the work I've seen so far. Of course the flight models could have been a bit better, but I've read some comments about this by tdragger and I understand the "why".  though I hope we will keep evevolving in each FS to a more realistic fligh model...

p.s.
I hope you guys put vectoring thrust any day

cheers


p.p.s. sorry for the long post, but it's been days and days where all I can hear is people complaining, and I think you guys need to look also to what has been done well....


few....done

[NicksFXHouse]

I'm sorry folks, I know I said that I'd spouted my last word on this but the points Nick, who I greatly respect, has raised do need some sort of reply.

Nick, there's a difference between a genuinely personal blog and a company sponsored one. It's become very apparent that a lot (most?) of the FS blogging is officially sponsored by (and therefore supported by) Microsoft. As such it has become, I'd say by design, you'd say by accident and we'll agree to disagree on that, an arm of Microsoft's global marketing effort.

I personally am not comfortable with that - especially given the nature of a very large proportion of the FS market who are younger, highly impressionable and more likely to be influenced by what I perceive to be a slightly insidious marketing tool.

'Rumours' in a 'blog' soon become fact - and there's no advertising standards authority to ensure that what is put out is true, unlike with proper advertising. Also a posting with a title like this one gives the impression that there's a handful of dedicated programmers toiling by oil lamplight in their programming sheds dedicated to bringing their next offering to their mates - the flightsimming community.

That could not be further from the truth. These guys, the 'Team' we keep hearing about, are working for a global conglomerate on a commercial product which they plan to be highly profitable and make lots of money for it and their shareholders.

The 'communication' you talk about has now gone way beyond what might have been reasonable with the launch of any new product (and I've done one or two in my time). As the launch date approaches, it's now become total hype.

You and many others may not share my concern. OK that's you opinion and I respect that. But for me it comes from the same place as from where kids download ringtones for their phones and then find they've taken up a contract to receive a new one every week for a year. It smells a little bit of being based on spin and deception and for me that's not quite right with this hobby that up to now has given me and many others such a lot of fun.

It's all become far too commercial and big business, for me anyway.

I genuinely understand your concerns Roger. I have worked for large conglomerates most of my life and have seen quite a bit when it comes to big business. Over the last 30 years I have seen some things in corporate memos and actions that would make your hair stand up. What I have come to learn is that the actions of those in charge at the time of such decisions and practices do not make up a company, what it was founded on or where it may be in 30 years. Lessons are learned, new people move up, the bad leaves, some returns, the list goes on and so does life.

I am not saying you are incorrect about the possibilities involved with sponsorship of what is typically considered a personal blog communication but I think your concerns are being expressed in such a

[Fr. Bill]

'Rumours' in a 'blog' soon become fact - and there's no advertising standards authority to ensure that what is put out is true, unlike with proper advertising. Also a posting with a title like this one gives the impression that there's a handful of dedicated programmers toiling by oil lamplight in their programming sheds dedicated to bringing their next offering to their mates - the flightsimming community.

Just in case you missed the point, there have been - in fact - over 300 freeware and payware developers actively involved with the testing of FSX.

That - and only that - is the Subject of this thread. It is nothing more nefarious than a simple statement that the NDA has been lifted, and all those unpaid volunteers who have - in fact - been slaving away helping to test FSX beta builds are now freed from their obligation to maintain silence.

To make any more of this simple announcement is nothing short of sheer, rampant paranoia...  :o

[NicksFXHouse]

"Ah, but the strawberries! That's where I had them. They laughed and made jokes, but I provided beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist. And I'd have produced that key if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. I know now they were out to protect some fellow officer...."

[PisTon]

Of course Microsoft is trying to promote there product, and gain some popularity using blogs. What hey, what the heck is wrong with that? I've already had a number of my questions answered by Tdragger, so I am happy.
None of the hype I've seen comes from blogs, I'm just happy they answered a couble of questions.

Noone thinks that they're some people doing this for free in there little programming shed by candle light, but that dosn't mean that Tdragger is some corparate mastermind trying to take over the comminity and have complete control of Flight Simulator does it?

[Arnimon]

To put it at my point of view;for shure there are lots of other things, similar to the one that you are concerned about,that should make you worry even more, but not the fact that MS wants to make some profit by selling a new FS.

[tdragger]

A very interesting discussion to be sure. It's a bummer, though, that our desire to be more open has been met with such skepticism. I suppose some of it is inevitable given the official quietness for all this time.

As for all the forum and blog posts being some sort of conspiracy, concocted and endorsed by marketing, that's particularly hard to take, especially to those of us who lobbied management to go along with this more open approach. It was rooted in a desire to share what we've done and to help users get the most out of a very complex "game". And for the most part it's all happened on our own time. For instance, it's Labor Day morning right now and I could be watching Jay-Jay the Jet plane with my daughter but instead I'm trolling the forums, looking for questions I can answer.

But my time isn't unlimited. I only recently started checking SV but it seems like several of you are both prominent members of this community and definitely against this sort of participation from MS. Unfortunately with forums you can't really limit your conversations with just the people who want to listen. Inevitably threads like this arise and draw attention away from the core intent--to help and inform. So thanks for the invite to participate. It's been interesting to "meet" another group of dedicated simmers but as for me, I need to be mindful of my time. Check in with me on a blog when FSX comes out. I hope you really find some things in it you like.

[cleobis]

And what shouldn't have happened, did... :-/

I agree with tdragger in that people are being a bit paranoic about m$ policy...

I hope you come back tdragger because a lot of us do appreciate imensly what you and other guys are trying to do in order to reach the comunity...

cheers

[Fr. Bill]

Sigh... the same thing happened at flightsim.com...

Adios amigos. I too have limited time and would prefer to spend it where wanted.  :-X