About 2D cockpits...

[Daube]

Hi all,

On another forum, a discussion is going on about a problem I didn't really understand with the 2D cockpit sideviews.

People are getting somehow upset about the fact that 2D side cockpit views are no more allowed in FSX...

Could somebody explain me, with arguments and not too much passion, what's the problem ? I mean, people seems to be complaining about the fact that 2D cockpits are more or less being left appart, while 3D cockpit are clearly taking the advantage.

That's just logical to me... I mean, here are what I think I have understood about the people using the 2D cockpits:
- they have more details... well, 3D cockpits are more complete and more detaillled, with the same quality of textures, now.
- they are more easy on frames... err what's the problem ? The sim is evolving and asking more ressources, so what ?
- they are more smooth... no more the case with FSX, VC gauges are smooth now
- gauges are easier to read... I don't think so, set your view at the same place (yeah, you can do that in VC, not in 2D) as you would be in 2D cockpit, and you will get the same readability.

So, after all, it seems to me that simmers that were using only 2D cockpit are not loosing any functionnalities here, so why are they complaining ?

There were even discussion about the people who used to provide great 2D cockpits, and who will not provide anything anymore in FSX... Well, couldn't they provide great textures and accurate gauges+button placements for VC parts instead of not providing anything ?

I would like to get the point of view of everybody here: VC users as well as 2D cockpit users.

[expat]

People are getting somehow upset about the fact that 2D side cockpit views are no more allowed in FSX...

Got 2D cockpits in my FSX Demo.

Matt

[Fozzer]

When I require complete access to everything on my instrument panel I always use the 2D panel.

The problem I have with 3D panels is the fact that many instruments, switches, etc are hidden behind the yokes, typically the ignition switch, master/alternator switches, light switches, and often the radios are not only located out of view, but are difficult to tune.
And trim levers, undercarriage levers, trim wheels, etc, are located on the floor and cannot be immediately seen when urgently required.

The 3D cockpit is fine for relaxed cruising, but when the conditions require urgent attention, radio tuning, take-off, trimming, flaps, undercarriage, landing, etc, the 2D cockpit comes into its own... ...!

I rarely use the 3D cockpit when actually navigating.

In the real aircraft the panel can be scanned with a movement of the head whilst operating the various controls.
In the 3D sim cockpit the scan has to be achieved by the use of the mouse or joystick top hat, which means the hands are not free to operate the controls at the same time... ...!

I'm all for including a 2D cockpit in all aircraft, they may not be accurate but at least they are complete... ...!

Paul... ...!

[Hagar]

Daube is talking about side view windows in 2D panels, not the panels themselves. These were introduced in FS2000 as the default aircraft had no DVC or even a VC due to the graphics engine not supporting interior views. I suspect the 2D panel will eventually become reundant.

[expat]

When I require complete access to everything
In the 3D sim cockpit the scan has to be achieved by the use of the mouse or joystick top hat, which means the hands are not free to operate the controls at the same time... ...!

Try out a TrackIR.

Matt

[Daube]

Try out a TrackIR.

Matt

Yes I was about to write that
Of course, some will complain about the extra-cost, but I see it exactely in the same way as those modern joysticks or steering wheels with separated pedals, that made people used to gamepad or keyboard complain as well

For the side views, it was the origin of the complaints, but this whole discussion is actually focus on ALL the panel.

[Fozzer]

...... I suspect the 2D panel will eventually become redundant.

Are you serious about the possible loss of the 2D Panels in aircraft, considering my comments above?......!

Paul... ...!

[Hagar]

Are you serious about the possible loss of the 2D Panels in aircraft, considering my comments above?......!

Paul... ...!

Indeed Paul. That's always seemed the way to go to me & I'm surprised it's taken so long. I've already seen a few 3rd party aircraft for FS9 with no 2D panel at all.

PS. It's supposed to be "As real as it gets" & I never thought that 2D panels were realistic.  I think you either love 'em or hate 'em.

[Fozzer]

Indeed Paul. That's always seemed the way to go to me & I'm surprised it's taken so long. I've already seen a few 3rd party aircraft for FS9 with no 2D panel at all.

PS. It's supposed to be "As real as it gets" & I never thought that 2D panels were realistic.  I think you either love 'em or hate 'em.

Personally, I love them.... ...!
...especially when I am just about to land and I can see the position of the undercarriage, the position of the trim wheel, and the flaps extension on the 2D panel.

All of those important details are mostly hidden from forward view in the Virtual Cockpit and I will be burying myself at high speed into the runway with my wheels up, trimmed nose down, and no flaps extended... ...!
Buggar...!

I think it's always nice to have the option of both 2D and Virtual Cockpits to suit everyone, (especially me!).... ...!

They may not be accurate, but by golly they are practical... ...!

Paul....(A 2D representation).... ...!

[Hai Perso Coyone?]

I only use the VC for taking shots...

All of my flying is done with the 2D panel...

Cheers,
Ashar (2D Panel All the WAY)

[Hagar]

All of those important details are mostly hidden from forward view in the Virtual Cockpit and I will be burying myself at high speed into the runway with my wheels up, trimmed nose down, and no flaps extended... ...!
Buggar...!

That wouldn't happen if you follow the checklists correctly. I'm not alone in thinking those awful 2D panels that cover 3/4 or more of the screen in FS encourage bad habits when people start learning to fly for real. They spend all their time concentrating on the instruments when they should be looking outside with just the occasional glance down to check them.

[Fozzer]

I've suddenly remembered another reason why I like 2D Panels....

In the Panel Folder they appear as .bmp files which can be loaded into Paint Shop Pro and the X-Y location in which to allow me to add another dial, switch, radio, etc, is presented.
I then add the object to Panel Notepad file giving the X-Y coordinates*.
(I do it all the time)......!

I dont think this can be done so easily, directly in 3D Virtual Cockpit panels...?

Paul.....Hands up for 2D panels!........!

*..Don't argue....it's the way I do it... ...!

[alrot]

try to get use to the VC if you don't know,Learn to use the VC ,I used to be 2d panel user ,it was ok ,but when i got use to this change boy this is greater than I spect I enjoy more,I felt more the plane,Its like you really sitting on the Pilot's seat..

[Daube]

I've suddenly remembered another reason why I like 2D Panels....

In the Panel Folder they appear as .bmp files which can be loaded into Paint Shop Pro and the X-Y location in which to allow me to add another dial, switch, radio, etc, is presented.
I then add the object to Panel Notepad file giving the X-Y coordinates*.
(I do it all the time)......!

I dont think this can be done so easily, directly in 3D Virtual Cockpit panels...?

Paul.....Hands up for 2D panels!........!

*..Don't argue....it's the way I do it... ...!

Sure it's convenient, but modifying the shape of a panel to include more switches is not realistic at all, in fact this is anti-realistic, since the switches are not in the correct place any more.

For the comment about the trim position, gears position etc... in the forward VC view, don't forget that in the VC you can move you head briefly to look down and check this stuff, just like a real pilot would lower his eyes for a second to check everything.

I understand that 2D panels ease the flight a lot, since you get everything you need directly on the screen without having to look for it. But personnaly, FS2004 wa my first "real" introduction to detailled VC, and I remember I was really having fun discovering that this or this switch was hidden behind the yoke or on the left of the panel in real life. In the 2D panel you don't get that "pilot environment" feeling.

Additionnaly, when it comes to looking outside, I really like the fact that I'm able to approach a runway on the right (or the left) of my plane while keeping an eye on the gauges. In 2D cockpit, you cannot get 2D working gauges when you're looking 45 degrees right. The same applies (and may even be a better example) to formation flying, when you look toward the followed plane without loosing your gauges. This is not possible in 2D cockpit.

Finally, the track IR is really eliminating all the "problems" linked to the manipulations of the point of view. If a real pilot as to look at the switches hiddent behind his yoke, he will just put his head forward so that he can see them. With the track-IR, you actually do exactely that, just like the real pilot, that is: realistic.

But I mean, even without the track IR, simply using modules like F1view or active camera would allow you to move your head quickly enough in the VC. And now FSX is coming, and it will allow you to add as many view points in your VC as you want, so nothing will prevent you from adding one view in front of the instruments (for easier handling, like the radio stuff mentionned earlier in this post for example), far from the instruments to get better view, left-right cockpit place, etc... Just like you would bring different 2D panel parts in FS9.

[Fozzer]

On my Flying Club Cessna 152, a simple, quick, (but expensive luxury), Bendix-King radio stack upgrade incorporating an auto-pilot module into a spare slot in the 2D Panel.
(Note: The autopilot VOR and NDB dials already exist).

Before....>>>



After....>>>



How would you perform a modification like that on a 3D Virtual Cockpit Panel...?

Paul....The option....Design and supply both 2D and 3D panels.... ...?