panels and how they get in the way during landing

[RDinger]

Hello,

Most freeware planes I download do not have a VC. But when I try to land a plane with only a 2D panel my landings always are scewed-up because I can't see the runway. Using shift+enter to flip the map doens't work either, because then the picture becomes misrepresented. (In other words: I think i'm descending while in reality, my planes is in a nose up position even if the primairy flight display shows a descent.)
So I get in a stall, or when I press space to get a normal view, I lose visual on the runway...

Anyone familiar with this problem and know how I can get around this problem? I mean..there a lot of great aircraft which have no VC, and

[commoner]

Hi RD...have you tried pressing W to get the mini panel? Gets rid of all the panel and just leaves a set of instruments..........commoner

[Allen_Z]

Hit shift + Z (3 times for complete cycle) for your overhead flight info, and W for the mini panel,
it's all you need for a good landing.

There are downloads for BETTER
mini panels, look around for them

DME and the ILS is all ya got for a landing to minimums, and if yer minimum is 200 or 300 feet, then switch to mini panel

[commoner]

..No need to download.....It's quite a simple task to make up your own mini panel with your favourite gauges displayed as you would like them...commoner

[Allen_Z]

some folks have things to do, (a life) and would like a fast download, wha'cha think?

[JerryH]

RDinger,

Without knowing for sure, it's my guess that you are approaching on the ILS glide slope when this happens. If so, your airspeed is way too slow or the flaps are not properly set. Either will cause the nose to pitch up in an effort to increase lift.

If this is the case, fill us in on the aircraft type and fuel status and we can probably be of more help.

Regards,
JerryH

[RDinger]

Hello and thnx for the replies. I was aware of the minipanel, but when I'm flying commercial jets, the minipanel is centered in the bottom of the screen, taking away my visual again..

I also know about the shift Z key but landing that way feels....well....fake... in some way...

I think it's the fuel and payload and flap thing that makes my plane go nose up during landing. I never actually pay attention to the fuel when I start a flight. I will try this and see if this make things better.
Problem with the flaps is, in a lot of freeware aircraft, there is no manual or instruction document when to set what flapsetting at what speed.

I fly mostly commercial jets...

[JerryH]

To land the commercial jets properly, the bird shouldn't be heavier than the Max Landing Wgt (MLW). Also, when you're in the learning phase (as we all are) the aircraft will handle better when lighter. MLW is defined by the manufacturer. Lacking the real number, I would set the fuel weight well below 50%.

I think the best place for you to start is in the FS2004 "Learning Center". Open the Learning Center, click on the "Key Topics" tab then scroll down and click on "Aircraft Information". I recommend the B737-400 for starters. Click on the 737; at the top of the page is a link with the name "Flight Notes".

Print the Flight Notes so you have a handy reference. Without knowing your background, this info may or may not come easy for you. When I first started with the Boeing jets, I left a large pile of B747s short of runway 34R at KSEA (Seattle). For all of us, it takes time to master the big birds.

For the problem you originally described, maintaining the correct airspeed for your current weight and flap setting is the only way to keep the runway visible, short of sticking your head out the window.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Regards,
JerryH

[Kaworu]

some folks have things to do, (a life) and would like a fast download, wha'cha think?

Come on man. that was uncalled for. and if you're gonna insult somebody, insult me. commoner is one of the best we got on this forum, his worth more than me or you to the good of this place.  ::)

sorry, very off topic. couldn't keep quiet though.  :(

[Nav]

RDinger, most of the answer is to use the instruments a bit more and the 'visuals' a bit less. Flying (in FS or anywhere else) depends on keeping speed, attitude, trim, power, and all the other variables balanced.

As to the panel position, I rather agree with you that the 'W' position (gauges only) is not a good solution. In the normal view you can lower the panel height in stages by pressing 'Shift/Enter' ('Spacebar' to cancel); I suggest getting the aeroplane flying straight and level and then finding out what lowers the panel to a sensible height for you (usually two or three notches is fine) and then leaving it there.

But holding a good 'landing attitude' depends on getting the power, speed, rate of descent, and trim all balanced. And that depends on regularly scanning the key instruments - just looking out the front won't help much, in fact it can be actively misleading.

The key ones are usually the Artificial Horizon, the Air Speed Indicator, Altimeter, Rate of Climb/Descent, and Engine Power. This picture shows a default 737 on landing approach - the key instruments (from left to right) show that speed is 140 knots, nose is level, I'm banking slightly right, height is 150 feet, descent rate is 600 feet per minute, and power is at 49% N1. The panel also shows that I have the gear and 30 degrees of flap down and that autopilot and autothrottle are disengaged.



Sorry if it all seems complicated, but FS would be no use to us if it was too simple! The Learning Centre will help, look up any default aeroplane and it will show the panel with all the instruments marked. It will also give you recommended landing speeds, flap settings etc. for each type.

In case it helps, here's a tute (which includes the picture above) that takes you right through an ILS landing in a 737. My advice is, set up and save a landing of your own; fly it first of all on ILS, watching the instruments; then progressively phase out the autothrottle and autopilot earlier and earlier in the approach, until you can fly the whole thing manually.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=COF;action=display;num=1111322151

[beaky]

"Shift, Enter" is another option when using a 2D panel... simulates raising your eye point to look over the panel by raising the horizon relative to the panel. "Shift Backspace" does the opposite.

I know that doesn't make sense in text, but it works. The effect is similar, though, to what you see when you are pitched downward, so it's not ideal. I don't care for it much, myself.

I personally won't land anything with only a 2D panel unless it's optimized for more realistic forward view or has a shape that allows some view at the edges... and I don't mind certain taildraggers which have very poor visibilty in the landing flare, even in VC mode... it's part of "as real as it gets", for me, anyway. In a real Cub, for example, you cannot see a damn thing ahead of you when flaring for a 3-point landing, especially if you are flying it from the back seat (as you must when flying it solo). It's all about eyeballing the runway edge with your peripheral vision.

[commoner]

some folks have things to do, (a life) and would like a fast download, wha'cha think?

Come on man. that was uncalled for. and if you're gonna insult somebody, insult me. commoner is one of the best we got on this forum, his worth more than me or you to the good of this place.  ::)

sorry, very off topic. couldn't keep quiet though.  :(

...........thanks for that CR..I would have answered that "Wha'cha think" guy myself but my answer would probably have got me permanently barred.......commoner

..and to say again re. the mini panel by tweaking the mini panel. you can move and resize the gauges to any position on the screen.....top.sides or wherever it suits, but if you want a more natural approach then you can't call mini panel "normal" by any stretch of the imagination  :-?..........some even use the spot plane to land which I think is even worse............

Some good advice there from the guys....hope you sort it out from that lot...........commoner

[Zaphod]

A pal of mine is having the same problems with the final stages of landing because he can't see the runway. I suggested using a "callout gauge" which I find really helpfull. 50, 40, 30, 20 (retard), 10 etc. You can judge the flare by listening to the callouts.
Works for me

Zaphod

[Fozzer]

I know it's a bit of a cheat...

But when I am having fun in the multiplayer sessions, (and even on my own private flights), I always use one of the default aircraft which generally have re sizable 2D instrument panels.
Their height can be reduced/compressed with the Mouse to make forward visibility very much easier... ...!


I forget how many times I have asked, in the Forum, what the difficulty is for Panel Designers in making their 2D Instrument Panels re sizable?.... ...!

In real life, a Pilot can stretch his neck, (or put extra cushions on his seat), to peer over the Instrument Panel for a better forward view of the approaching Runway... ....

...something which we poor Simmers cant do with very much effect... ......

..extra cushions don't work for us!....trust me......!

So, for me, it's Hooray for re sizable 2D Instrument Panels... [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]...!

Paul...G-BPLF....Default Beech Baron/King Air... ...!

P.S....Why don't Aircraft Manufacturers make the seat "Height" adjustable in their Aircraft,  for Pilots who suffer from a  deficiency in the "Height Department"?.... ... ...!

[Hagar]

I've always thought those 2D panels were the most unrealistic part of FS.  Aircraft are not flown continually staring at a huge instrument panel directly in front of you. This gives the completely wrong impression & is bound to lead to bad habits if you ever take up flying in the real world. If you look at any real aircraft you will see the pilot's viewpoint is well above the panel so he can be constantly looking outside with the occasional glance down at the instruments.

Some 3rd party 2D panels feature a 'look-down' view which is probably the best that can be done with this type of panel. The next best thing is the mini-panel view that commoner mentioned.  The most realistic view possible in FS is the DVC which is the reason that 2D panels are being phased out. Not before time. IMHO
I strongly suspect that FSXI will not feature default 2D panels.