Advice Needed - Continue

[aritrixa]

Dear Friends,

Looks that I solved all the problem with my approach procedure (speed, RWY line up, etc) thanks to all your valuable advice and help here. Thanks.  :)

Then, it come for me to apply a correct T/O and Landing procedural, such as when to turn on/off the landing light, descend, etc.

Is there any source that I can download such procedure?
Is the procedure different from one airline to another in real life?

Thanks.  :)

[Ashar]

For an excellent ILS landing tutorial, I suggest you take a look at the following thread:

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2 ... 1111322151

Cheers,
Ashar

[FlightSimKid]

Hi well, if you do an IFR flight, when you get nearer to your destiination, ACT will tell you to decend to a certain altitude. on the Take-off, Landing Procedures, I normally turn my landing light off when im about 700feet in the air and turn them on when im about 5-9 miles out. Hope i helped.

[aritrixa]

Guys,

Thanks for the advice.

@ashar: Yes, that is the tute that I download it for the first time when I move to jet simming.

What I really need is the "real" procedure in airline. For instance, I believe that the pilot decides when to descend and ask ATC clearance to do so instead of waiting FS9 ATC instructs for a descend.

I experienced quite often that I miss to turn the landing light off after T/O and realize it when I want to turn it on for landing, that's another reason that make me curious what actually the real pilot do...

[Ashar]

Guys,

Thanks for the advice.

@ashar: Yes, that is the tute that I download it for the first time when I move to jet simming.

What I really need is the "real" procedure in airline. For instance, I believe that the pilot decides when to descend and ask ATC clearance to do so instead of waiting FS9 ATC instructs for a descend.

I experienced quite often that I miss to turn the landing light off after T/O and realize it when I want to turn it on for landing, that's another reason that make me curious what actually the real pilot do...

Oh...I know all about aircraft lights...I'll tell you all procedures now:

1. At the gate/ramp, your Nav light should be on...When you are getting ATC clearance, turn on the rotating beacon lights (the red ones)...

2. After pushback, turn on your taxi lights...Continue to runway...

3. After Take-Off is approved, Landing lights and strobe lights (the bright white lights) should be turned on...

4. At 10,000ft, landing lights should be turned off...You can also turn off taxi lights if you wish...

5. While cruising, landing light should be Off...All other lights (nav, rotating beacon, and strobe) should be on...

6. When you descend, turn on your landing lights below 10,000ft...Taxi lights may be turned on after the gear comes down...or after touchdown...up to you...

7. After turning onto the taxiway, landing lights off and strobe lights off...Taxi light should be on...

8. If you are going to cross an active runway while you are taxi-ing to your stand, turn on Strobe lights and quickly vacate/clear the runway...If not, ignore this step...

9. As you are about to turn in order to line up with your gate, turn off taxi-lights or the ramp agents will be blinded (only applies at night)

Hope that helped somewhat...It's what I have collected over the year from many different web sites and from my own personal experience....

[aritrixa]

Hi Ashar...


That is really really helpful...

Bravo, Mate....

Thanks..


PS: I am also a fan of Biancoceleste...especially during Eriksson era...  :)

[Nav]

aritrixa, glad the advice helped. And thanks especially for coming back on to your earlier thread and saying so - none of us minds helping, but it's annoying when people ask for help and then don't let us know how they got on.

About 'when to start the descent,' there are really three answers.

1. If you're flying 'IFR' ('Instrument Flight Rules,' under full ATC control) and using the ILS, as you'll know by now, ATC will dictate your height, and will conclude with a final instruction along the lines of 'turn to course 180 degrees, maintain 2,000 feet until established on the localiser.' The ILS system will then line you up and start your descent at the proper time.

2. If you are flying VFR ('Visual Flight Rules') but using ILS, ATC will just allocate you a runway; and it is your responsibility to plan things so that you approach the runway line at a sensible angle and distance out, while you are still below the glidepath. But once you press 'APP' the ILS will still line you up and start your descent for you at the right moment.

3. If you are flying VFR and ALSO not using ILS (or landing at airports that don't have it) the real fun of FS starts; because you have to plan every detail yourself. Nevertheless there are some simple rules to follow, which work.

The first thing to mention is 'the rule of three.' An aeroplane at a reasonable rate of descent will take three miles to descend 1,000 feet. That remains true at virtually any speed. So if you're at 2,000 feet above runway level, for example, you should start your descent no closer than six miles from touchdown.

[aritrixa]

Hi Nav,

Thanks so much for the explanation.

I recognize very clearly that all the people here are so helpful and have an outstanding level of patience when dealing with a stupid rookie like me who always asking a basket of some basic stupid question  :). I must thank all of you for that, otherwise I feel myself guilty.

Back to business:

So, as most probably I'll be flying Full IFR, then I don't have to bother myself to decide to descend usually at 100 NM before the destination?

Is it also what happen to real pilot in real life?

What I am doing now to descend is: I create my own sketched-flight plan, and determine the point when to descend, yes, using "The Rule of Three" like you mentioned in order to reach 2000 ft AGL about 25 NM to the destination.

But, it is quite often the ATC deny my request to reach 2000 ft. In the beginning I thought perhaps The FS9 ATC wouldn't me to go down further in order to keep me save - because of terrain characteristic in that area, such as mountain, etc.
Then, I found myself descending over the ocean, and the ILS approach for that airport is clear for any high altitude terrain, ATC still deny my request to reach 2000 AGL.

It triggered me to the question who has the right to decide descending, Pilot or ATC?

I have never in full IFR on a jet simming before and never flying above 2500 ft with my beloved C172.  ;)

BR.
AA
Near WIII

[Nav]

Misunderstanding, aritrixa, my fault - not 'stupid' at all to ask. Most of us spent years trying to work out the finer points of FS, it's fun to help people make quicker progress. My problem is with people who ask, but don't bother to come back on to say whether the advice given was any use or not. You're fine, keep on asking.

It triggered me to the question who has the right to decide descending, Pilot or ATC?

Flying IFR, DEFINITELY ATC. They'll tell you when to start your descent, and what courses to follow. Do what they say; don't start your descent until ATC tells you to..

Is it also what happen to real pilot in real life?

Same or worse. There are very complicated rules for real pilots. I've never flown jets, but I understand that they are bound by their airlines' rules to follow very strict procedures as to which of the many available autopilot 'modes' they are allowed to use in a descent; and they also get told by ATC to be down to a certain height by the time they reach a given beacon, whether or not that's possible without spilling the drinks in First Class, or maybe even tearing the wings off....but thankfully that's not our problem as simmers.

I think I see what the problem may be - airspeed. Flight Simulator ATC is programmed on the assumption that you're not flying too fast. If you are, there'll be a tendency for FS ATC instructions to be 'too little, too late.' Approach too fast, and you may find the FS 'controllers' not turning you on to your final course to intercept the localiser beam/glideslope until you're within 3 miles of the airport.

My solution to that possible problem, when flying the default 737, is to switch to IAS, and set the speed hold to 250 knots, as soon as I'm told to start the descent. And I usually 'accept' the default rate of descent (1,800 feet per minute). With the 737, that usually means that you're down to the mandated height in plenty of time for ATC to begin vectoring you on to final approach at a sensible distance from the airport.

If you're having problems, it could very well be that you're descending at too high an airspeed, and therefore getting too far ahead of where the FS programmers expected you to be when you got down to the ordered height.

Try that '250-knot IAS' idea of mine - see if that solves your problem.

[JBaymore]

My solution to that possible problem, when flying the default 737, is to switch to IAS, and set the speed hold to 250 knots, as soon as I'm told to start the descent. And I usually 'accept' the default rate of descent (1,800 feet per minute). With the 737, that usually means that you're down to the mandated height in plenty of time for ATC to begin vectoring you on to final approach at a sensible distance from the airport.

Nav,

My normal approach to starting down at the TOD is to turn off the VNav (altitude hold) and then cut the throttles to flight idle and adjust trim for the desired descent rate (normally somewhat specified by the specific aircraft flown).

[aritrixa]

Hi Nav, HI Ashar

I just tried your advice. It works, and I got a smooth and "procedural" landing at WSSS

Although a B744 KLM on my AI traffic that was cleared to land No.2 after me,  was in hurry I guess, and did an overtake at 3NM before runway only couple hundred feet above me!!....before the ATC ask him to Go Around and finally dissapeared in the sky  :D

Only happen in my PC!!!  8-)

[Nav]

Great, aritrixa!

Jbaymore, yes, you're quite right - under pressure from the bean-counters, the modern method in jets is to stay at 'idle' as much as possible on the way down.

I wanted to take it 'step-by-step' for aritrixa, and as you'll know 'Speed Hold' works out OK in the default 737. As I further explained to him, though, with some aeroplanes that isn't enough, and you have no option but to go to 'idle' AND use the spoilers.

I do tend to have a bit of a hang-up about going fully to 'idle' through a long descent, though. Comes from earlier 'real' experience in light props - in those, that was the quickest way to 'shock-cool' the engine and turn a Cessna into a un-powered glider!

I'm thankful that THAT particular feature is not modelled in the FS props (at least, I don't THINK it is!). And, anyway, it doesn't apply to jets even in real life, as far as I know.

[gypsymoth]

Thanks all for this riveting topic.    Although I have had FS9 for over a year I don't use it often enough so reading your stuff is a great source of learning.    

One question though - I can see the sense of not using fuel needlessly but I have assumed that idling engines is a safe flying concern?   It has never dawned on me that the bean-counters might modify a pilot's behaviour or is aviation more cut-throat than I'd realised?  

[Nav]

[quote]It has never dawned on me that the bean-counters might modify a pilot's behaviour or is aviation more cut-throat than I'd realised?