Homicidal ATC Rant

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Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Xyn_Air » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:05 am

I would just like to first point out that it is the FS ATC that is homicidal, not myself!  FS ATC sends hundreds of virtual passengers to their demise; I just rant.

Also, I rant a lot, and I know it.  If you don't want to read a wall of text rant, don't then.  I promise not to hold it against you in the least.  Life is short, as they say.  But, please, refrain from posting just to tell me you don't like reading long posts.  That really has little to do with the subject and just makes me more grumpy a person than I normally am.  ;)  If you like reading long tales of FS woe and virtual ATC antics, then by all means, please, keep reading.




So, here is the scenario:

I have been wanting to work up to more endurance oriented flights; that is, flying over longer distances and for longer periods of time in real time while at the controls.  So, to prepare myself, I have been acclimating myself to different things that might be required to do such a thing.

One of the things I have been working on is being used to monitoring FS for longer and longer stretches of time without a break.  To that end, I have been making long flights in airliners, and today I was flying a 747-400 from Seattle-Tacoma Int'l (KSEA) to New Tokyo Int'l in Narita, Japan (RJAA).  This is a roughly 10 hour flight (depending on the winds).  In real time.

I did take a couple of breaks (paused the simulation, that is), but I did do at least one stretch of six hours solid.  OK, I am using A/P which is going to reduce the workload immeasurably, especially with the flight director on.  But, I sat by my computer for all those hours responding to ATC calls, checking my flight plan, checking fuel (not that anything interesting every really happens there in FS), and so on.  Thank goodness for my laptop so I could watch videos in between checking on my flight (set up right next to my main computer).

Finally, after a long flight and a strong desire to get up and move around, I was on final approach for 16L at RJAA.  While still about 30 miles out, I turned on the flight recorder, figuring I could later relax and enjoy watching my approach and landing.  The weather wasn't too bad.  There were some low clouds but the wind was fairly calm.  Good day for flying.  Also, because I timed my departure and arrival well, I was arriving in daylight hours.  Visibility was great.

Having filed an IFR flight plan, ATC guided me in during my entire approach.  First I was given approach vectors and then given directions to line up with the localizer.  Somewhere around 10 miles out, I received my final ATC clearance to land.  Clearance to land!  At about 400 feet and less than two miles from the runway, ATC all of a sudden clears another 747 onto the runway for takeoff.  Moments later I get the command to go around.

:o >:( :o >:( :o

W. T. F.

I myself only became aware of the aircraft in front of me when I switched cockpit views at the last second to get a better view of the runway for landing.  I had to hurriedly switch cockpit views back and try to change umpteen different settings for a go-around. Unfortunately, I was unable to regain enough airspeed and elevation while also veering off from the aircraft taking off in front of me (747's can be slow to maneuver at times!).  Just past the runway, I stalled and crashed.

:-[ :-/ :'(

All.  That.  Time.  *BOOM*  And what is great, after I crashed, ATC was still asking me if I copied their last instructions.  I do realize that a pilot should be prepared to execute a go-around at any time during approach and landing.  So, sadly, I have to take some of the burden for the crash on my own shoulders.  But, in that wonderful human tradition of shifting blame, I am soooo pointing the finger at ATC for this one. ;)  While it is reasonable to expect that pilots should be prepared for a go-around, I am not sure it is reasonable to expect that pilots should be prepared to dodge other traffic taxiing on the runway while trying to land an aircraft that weighs over 400,000 pounds!

What is eerie about this whole mess is that is closely resembles what happened in real life with USAir Flight 1493 and SkyWest Airlines Flight 5569 at LAX in 1991, a collision incident I myself only learned of recently.  There, too, ATC first cleared one aircraft for landing and then proceeded to clear a second aircraft onto the same runway for take-off.

OK, weird, coincidental similarities aside, I have noticed before that FS ATC can call it pretty close with traffic.  This is not the first time I have been told to go-around because of conflict commands given to traffic by ATC (those other times, though, it was easier to execute a go-around as I was piloting more responsive light aircraft).  Is this a FS ATC issue, or is real life ATC as hectic as this, too?  I mean, real world ATC has thousands and thousands of flights it handles every day, so the few incidences over the years of collisions or such caused or aggravated by ATC commands seems like a fractionally small percentage.  FS has the benefit of controlling the entire environment in the simulation, and so you would think there would be no incidents of this sort.

Thoughts?

Going back to short hops in small planes for awhile,
~Darrin
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby JBaymore » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:19 am

Narita-shi, Japan - A spokesman for the Japanese Air Transport Safety Board, Tokagawa Ieasu,
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Ashar » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:27 am

Yeah, I get what you mean...What I usually do is after I am airborne and at cruising altitude, I cancel my IFR flight plan...Then I just pop up the GPS and follow the course line indicated...When I'm around 100 miles away from my destination, I re-open my flight plan and click no when it asks me to take the aircraft to departure airport...That way, I simply get clearance in mid-air and continue for the next 90 or so miles on my own following the ATC directions...I always also make sure that my flight is in correct approach patterns...For example, if there is another aircraft in front of me, I try to keep a distance of 6 miles at least...That way, I give that aircraft enough time to land and get of the runway giving me a clear run...You might want to get a program that changes the AI's taxi speed as the default aircraft just slow to 20KIAS on the runway...I've changed mine to around 35 KIAS ensuring the runway is almost always clear when I come...If now, I am always prepared for a go-around...Nice to hear from some-one else that does long-haul flying...I too fly real-time...My longest stretch yet was in the CLS A340-500 going from OMDB-KJFK, a real flight flown by Emirates that lasts around 14.5 hours...But to due to traffic problems, took me around 15 hours...Was great fun and I felt awesome after flying it...

Cheers,
Ashar

PS: When you set up a flight plan, choose the direct GPS way...That way ATC doesn't nag you every now and then to turn this heading or whatever... ;)
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Xyn_Air » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:57 am

John,

Thanks for the laugh.  Actually, it was both sobering and amusing at the same time.  Sobering, because even thinking about crashes just unnerves me.  But, mostly amusing especially after I gave it a second read and read the spokesperson's name.  I suppose Mr. Tokugawa reports to the Bureau of Transportation Chief Nobunaga Oda?  ;)

Ashar, the stunning thing about this accident is that ATC cleared another aircraft for takeoff while I was in the process of landing.  Up until that point in the flight, I had no problems at all with ATC.  Also, I don't mind answering the ATC calls as that is part of what the point of this flight was: forcing myself to continue monitoring a flight for extended periods of time.  My big question (concern? rant?  ::) ;D) is whether or not anyone has experienced ATC giving out commands that are exceedingly dangerous, such as I experienced.  I can trail aircraft that are landing ahead of me, but there is little I can do about aircraft that suddenly pull out onto the runway in front of me and stop.  ;)

BTW, let us hope the CVR is not found, as it probably contains a number of things said not germane to the accident and too colorful for publication.  ::)

:o

Hm.  That gives me a thought.  I know FS records some flight data (such as elevation, airspeed, heading, and so on).  But, wouldn't it be great if there was a feature or add-on that worked just like the black boxes but for FS?  After the crash, I was really wondering how I could have safely recovered the situation.  I think it was possible to execute a safe go around, but that I simply became overwhelmed by having to carry out too many commands over too short a period of time in an aircraft I was unfamiliar with flying.

Er . . . I mean . . . um . . . it's ATC's fault, without a doubt!  ;)  Speaking of dropping names in the news:

Narita-shi, Japan - As the Japanese Air Transport Safety Board continues to look into the crash of a World Travel airlines 747-400 at New Tokyo International airport, representatives from Boeing and the NTSB have arrived in Japan to help with the investigation.  The NTSB has sent veteran investigator Matthew C. Perry at the invitation of the Transportation Chief Nobunaga Oda.  The Boeing delegation is being led by Alvin M. Johnston, who has extensive experience in the dynamics of Boeing aircraft flying outside of normal operational parameters.
Both of the aircraft's 'black boxes' have been recovered, and though heavily damaged, investigators hope to be able to discover what happened to the airliner in its last seconds.  Anonymous sources within the investigation have discovered that Narita Air Traffic Control did indeed clear a second 747 onto runway 16L moments before the World Travel airliner crashed on approach.  That second aircraft was able to take off safely and continue to its destination.  Though not yet confirmed, it is suspected that Ms. Suzumiya Haruhi was the ATC controller responsible for directing traffic on runway 16L at the time of the incident.

Well, those names should give you something to look up, John, while I think of some witty and more light-hearted conclusion to this twisted tale.

~Darrin
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby JBaymore » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:35 am

[quote]Thanks for the laugh.
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Brett_Henderson » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:06 am

Oh I love this stuff...   :)     Another example of how simming teaches and/or stimulates that piloting frame of mind. Think about it... the fact that you were striving for realism had you at the controls for the whole flight; sometimes entertained; sometimes enthusiastic; sometimes fatigued; sometimes aggravated, and of course the proverbial, "hours of boredom punctuated by a few seconds of terror"...

Even lacking realism, if there has to be a flaw in FS  ATC and AI interaction... it's probably best that it throw curves at a pilot like this. I think it's better than an ATC/AI system that is unrealistically WITHOUT any problems. I guess, ideally, one of the realism settings could (and might someday) be to adjust the proficiency of ATC...  Lord knows I've encountered some less than proficient controllers...

Anyway.. just look at the discussion here... and ponder how much more aware of, and appreciative you are for the FS exposure to the world of ATC.. and I think it's priceless (even if you fail and crash) to be forced to experience that situation having it thrown at you like that.

Fun stuff   :D
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Ashar » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:14 am

Generally speaking, FS ATC isn't the best when it comes to handling aircraft...But you gotta give MS some credit for trying to make things as real as possible... ;)
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby aussiewannabe » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 am

PS: When you set up a flight plan, choose the direct GPS way...That way ATC doesn't nag you every now and then to turn this heading or whatever... ;)


Nah, I prefer VOR to VOR when I can get it. It's nice to see an AC bank as it follows the GPS line.
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby matt2190 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:04 pm

I have had so many problems with ATC doing the most ridiculous things. For instance one time I was cleared to taxi on a runway and as soon as I entered the runway ATC cleared another aircraft for takeoff. You should have seen me trying to make the next turnoff before the other aircraft hit me.

The ATC adds a lot of realism to the sim, but unfortunately it still has many bugs to work out. Maybe in FS11 ;D.
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby murjax » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:46 pm

VATSIM and Microsoft should merge when they make FS11 or FS12. That way FS might be able to have some live ATC in it.  :)
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby gypsymoth » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:39 pm

What a stupendous rant  ;D     I have just got a new Jersey Airport & like flying in there to look at the nice modern buildings, etc (a quick coffee & then back to Bournemouth!!) & to my amazement recently ATC started giving me go-arounds so I installed Glenn Copeland's GoAround gauge to make up for the lack of first officer assistance (not used it yet!) but I have thought S*d It & just landed & ignored the You were not cleared to land rant.   Boot on the other foot I thought  :D      
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby ThomasKaira » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:14 pm

Yes, this is a great problem for all longhaul enthusiasts, including myself. What do I do? I "cheat" by turning all airline traffic off before I am to land at an airport. This way, ATC is unable to screw me over.

I myself prefer smaller widebody jets, like the DC-10 or 767, but I am just as capable of 747 flight, given a textbook perfect landing I made on JFK's runway 4R (the shortest) in a 747-400. That was fun.

I still have yet to master my 767-400, though. It flies like a tank. >:(

(said plane is in my sig)
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Xyn_Air » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:03 pm

. . . but I have thought S*d It & just landed & ignored the You were not cleared to land rant.   Boot on the other foot I thought  :D      


You know, a few months back I once landed at Minot Int'l (KMOT) in a 737 after ignoring a go-around command.  I swear, the computer ATC got testy with me and started urgently spamming the go-around command even as I was taxiing to the gates.  Finally, because I was ignoring the go-around command, ATC discontinued talking to me just like it does when you ignore any of their other commands.  I could have sworn the computer ATC's voice sounded miffed before I had ATC service cut off though!  ;D

I myself prefer smaller widebody jets, like the DC-10 or 767, but I am just as capable of 747 flight, given a textbook perfect landing I made on JFK's runway 4R (the shortest) in a 747-400. That was fun.

I still have yet to master my 767-400, though. It flies like a tank. >:(


Interesting observation, Jet Ranger.  And here I thought the 747 would have flown the most like a tank!  :o  Still, to some degree, all airliners fly like tanks.  That's why it is such a problem if you suddenly realize that you need to change the path of your aircraft and change it right now.  These big airliners just take time to adjust their flight.  And not only does it take time to get an airliner to do something different (unless you don't mind catastrophic failure of the airframe), everything around you tends to be happening at a much faster rate than when flying the lighter aircraft.  I mean, it's not like you are coming in for a landing in a 747 at 65 knots!  ;)

Speaking of different approach speeds, that is what occurred in the incident above where I ignored the go-around command and landed anyway.  ATC had cleared me to final approach, but not yet for landing.  Following that ATC cleared a Cessna for final as well.  I was further out from the airport (maybe about 15 miles) while the Cessna was at maybe 5 miles from the airport.  10 miles separation means no problem, right?  Well, a 737 traveling at 200 knots versus a Cessna traveling at 65 knots is going to eat up that distance a lot more quickly.  The Cessna being much closer when we both started final approach received clearance to land moments before I did.  The problem was, by the time we both received clearance to land, I had already overtaken the Cessna and was less than a mile from the runway and descending well under 1,000 feet above the runway elevation.  I mean, how was I supposed to follow an aircraft in that was behind me?  Sooo, I ignored the eventual go-around, landed anyway, and then felt guilty about it after.  Heh. ;D  Since then, I have always followed go-around commands to try and add to the realism of following ATC instructions.

VATSIM and Microsoft should merge when they make FS11 or FS12. That way FS might be able to have some live ATC in it.  :)


Well, Murjax, technically this is called FSX.  ;) ;D  But, even barring the occasional homicidal command from ATC, I am not sure the Flight Sim community is ready for mandatory live ATC.  I mean, you think you have seen flame wars before!  :o ;D  At least when I rant at the computer ATC, it isn't pouting and spiteful the next time I start up a flight.  ;D  At least, I hope not!  :o

I have had so many problems with ATC doing the most ridiculous things. For instance one time I was cleared to taxi on a runway and as soon as I entered the runway ATC cleared another aircraft for takeoff. You should have seen me trying to make the next turnoff before the other aircraft hit me. .


You know, Matt, I have seen ATC and AI aircraft work in collusion on this particular issue!  Just the other day as I was taxiing a 747, a 737 neatly taxied itself right up into my "tail feathers".  This, of course, caused a collision fault, and I had to start the flight over.  What confused me here is that I know I have heard ATC telling aircraft to hold position while taxiing because of other aircraft taxiing around them.  Heck, I have been told to hold position while taxiing myself.  Apparently ATC was on break at that moment.  ::)

Well, I think what I am learning from both first hand experience and what everyone else has mentioned is that ATC is our random, unexpected failure system in FS.  I mean, other failures, such as engine and instrument and engine failures, only occur when we set them up to occur.  And then, it is not as much a surprise because you are expecting it and can respond quite quickly to the problem at hand.  With the occasional ATC unpredictability, this may be the only chance we get to see how we would respond to an unplanned emergency.

Still, if I am going to have an unplanned emergency, I would much rather it not come at the end of a 10 hour trans-oceanic flight!  >:( ;D

Flying warily,
~Darrin
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby Papa9571 » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:04 am

I feel your pain Xyn-air.

I have had that happen to me many times in the past as well.
Usually it is the long haul routes that have issues but I have had some problems around O'hare (KORD) and Atlanta (KATL). Usually it involves me in a 747 following ATC, being inside 10 miles on approach at 170 kts, and having ATC vector another aircraft in front of me (for whatever reason).
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Re: Homicidal ATC Rant

Postby WebbPA » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:21 am

Thank you JBaymore for the funniest thing I have read all week.

I don't know what happened to ATC in FS04 but I know it was much better in FS02.
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