737 Landing

[Cessna93]

With I slow down it seems that my nose just drops down. I compensate with trim and i fin myself too high.

1. The way to slow down on a landing approach is NOT to cut power, it is to raise the nose.

2. The way to reduce the rate of descent is to add power.

This has been a very interesting thread.
I notice that no mention has been made so far as to the use of "Spoilers".
On nearly all the comercial flights I have made (and that's quite a few) the pilots have almost always found it necessary to use the spoilers to control some aspect of the decent. I assume it's mainly to control the speed.
I realise that the action of the spoilers isn't well modelled in FS2004 (all or nothing) but I thought it worth a mention.

Zaphod.

You should NEVER use spoilers UNLESS landing. I can tell you havn't been reading the real rules of flight.

[JBaymore]

I realise that the action of the spoilers isn't well modelled in FS2004 (all or nothing) but I thought it worth a mention.

Hummmm...........

What do you mean by this?

If you have the spoilers mapped to an axis, at least visually they can be deployed incrementally.

[Zaphod]

With I slow down it seems that my nose just drops down. I compensate with trim and i fin myself too high.

1. The way to slow down on a landing approach is NOT to cut power, it is to raise the nose.

2. The way to reduce the rate of descent is to add power.

This has been a very interesting thread.
I notice that no mention has been made so far as to the use of "Spoilers".
On nearly all the comercial flights I have made (and that's quite a few) the pilots have almost always found it necessary to use the spoilers to control some aspect of the decent. I assume it's mainly to control the speed.
I realise that the action of the spoilers isn't well modelled in FS2004 (all or nothing) but I thought it worth a mention.

Zaphod.

You should NEVER use spoilers UNLESS landing. I can tell you havn't been reading the real rules of flight.

Perhaps I should clarify. When I mentioned "decent" perhaps I should have said "Decent prior to landing."

[Cessna93]

With I slow down it seems that my nose just drops down. I compensate with trim and i fin myself too high.

1. The way to slow down on a landing approach is NOT to cut power, it is to raise the nose.

2. The way to reduce the rate of descent is to add power.

This has been a very interesting thread.
I notice that no mention has been made so far as to the use of "Spoilers".
On nearly all the comercial flights I have made (and that's quite a few) the pilots have almost always found it necessary to use the spoilers to control some aspect of the decent. I assume it's mainly to control the speed.
I realise that the action of the spoilers isn't well modelled in FS2004 (all or nothing) but I thought it worth a mention.

Zaphod.

You should NEVER use spoilers UNLESS landing. I can tell you havn't been reading the real rules of flight.

Perhaps I should clarify. When I mentioned "decent" perhaps I should have said "Decent prior to landing."

Landing as in on the runway and braking. Proper terms are base, approach and final a pilot dosn't say to ATC I am going to turn left then right then land after 10NM.

[Zaphod]

I realise that the action of the spoilers isn't well modelled in FS2004 (all or nothing) but I thought it worth a mention.

Hummmm...........

What do you mean by this?

If you have the spoilers mapped to an axis, at least visually they can be deployed incrementally.

[Nav]

a1, since this thread is supposed to be helping you with your landing technique, probably best to explain about the 'spoiler' since it's had so many mentions.

It CAN sometimes be useful in flight - one time I've found that I had to use it was bringing a 747 down from cruising height, they're so big and heavy that they can 'run away with you' in a descent, even with the engines at idle. They're also useful if you've made a mistake and got too close to the airport going too fast. Professional pilots use them that way on occasion. Control is to press '/', press again to retract it.

But ONLY use it in the initial descent, and only if you have to, and only in VERY short bursts - just as soon as you've got the speed down to where you want it, retract it. The reason for that is that, as the name suggests, it works by 'spoiling' the airflow over the wings - if you leave it on for too long you'll lose so much lift that you'll end up with the rate of descent completely out of control (downwards!).

And NEVER use the spoiler on final approach, for that reason. You should have got both your speed and your rate of descent correct long before you start finals. If you haven't, the proper response is to 'go around' and try again.

[a1]

So i sometimes use spoilers to get down quicker and flaps increase lift. When I land the 737 i don't have to use all 30 flaps? I did a good controlled landing just after i read this with flaps at 15. Is that correct?

[Nav]

"I did a good controlled landing just after i read this....."

That's genuinely good news, a1, you're getting somewhere. Keep up the practice and you'll have it all taped soon.

But I wish we didn't have to keep repeating ourselves. Mainly because you keep leaving SPEED out of the discussion. A good landing depends on balancing speed and rate of descent and keeping both right:-

About your queries:-

1. Flaps generate extra lift AT LOW SPEEDS. A jetliner at cruising speed doesn't need a lot of lift, but at landing speed it does. Think of flaps as a temporary increase in the wing area. But you have to avoid lowering them at too high a speed, otherwise the nose will pitch up alarmingly.

2. The correct flap setting for landing a 737 is minimum 30 degrees (up to 40 with a heavy load), and speed should be 140 knots. So no, 15 degrees is not 'correct.' Of course it doesn't matter much in FS, but it's not a good idea to get in the habit of landing too fast, in case you one day find yourself in control of a real aeroplane.

On a serious note, if you want a real-life example of the harm a 'split-arse' approach to flying can cause, we had one hereabouts very recently. This idiot came in so fast that he couldn't put the right amount of flap down, tried to land with them at 5 degrees:-

"A GARUDA Boeing 737 was travelling at 410kmh, nearly double normal landing speed, when it slammed into Yogyakarta Airport's runway last month, bouncing, bursting into flames and killing 21 people, the crash investigators' report says.

The confidential report, which Indonesian authorities are trying to suppress, points towards pilot error as the cause of the crash. Aviation experts confirmed speed and flap warnings would have been sounding in the cockpit and the pilot should have aborted the landing and "gone around"."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/plane-hit-at-twice-usual-speed/2007/04/06/1175366474352.html

[DizZa]

The following states for most Boeing aircraft I am familiar with... It probably applies to all airliners.


VREF.
I don't actually know what it is but it's basically approach speed depending on weight.

Spoiler use.
First and foremost, spoilers dump lift and create loads of drag. This obviously slows the plane down and pushes it down. Spoilers are used mainly on the latter stages of decent and on rollout when the mains (landing gear) have touched the ground (Press shift / to autoarm the spoilers so they deploy on touchdown).

Spoiler use is prohibited when using a few notches of flaps UNLESS on the ground. So try not to use spoilers on final. It is incredibly stupid to use spoilers up high as that just reaks of POOR PLANNING! I only use it if I'm low, on approach and I neeed to bleed excess speed off.

I should note that most freeware and even payware aircraft do a HORRIBLE job at spoilers. 95% of the time they are over reactive and cause the plane to dive to the ground.
Landing.
When on final, you should be decending at around 700 feet per minute. Do not use this as a guide though, use the PAPI lights or ILS to see if you're to high or low. Approach speed should be VREF +5 and in the 737 it's usually around 120- 140 knots, depending on weight.

Flare.
Flare is when you pull the nose up for a soft but firm touchdown. It usually happens above the runway threshold. In most aircraft you idle the throttles (F1) when passing above the runway (That includes 737).

When flaring you should flare to around level flight attitude (AROUND 4-6 degrees nose high) (Level flight attitude should always be the same if you have the correct VREF for your weight), and you should maintain back pressure throughout the whole flare. Flare is not a case of fiddling with the attitude of the aircraft. It's a quick procedure to get the plane on the ground quickly, but without smashing into the runway hard.

I usually try to make the plane touchdown less than three seconds from when I initiate the flare from when I touchdown. Anymore is safe... but a bad habit to get into.. (And on a wet runway you can slide of the end).

Flaps.
737s can land with a few diferant flap settings... 95% of the time it's using flaps 30, so I wouldn't do anything diferant unless it's a short runway where you could use flaps 40.

Landing attitude.
Final Approach attitude is usually a few degrees above the horizon. It should NEVER dip below the horizon unless you're flying an older aircraft without slats (Early dc9, dc8, early 707)

Flare attitude should be level flight attitude... that's usually about 6 degrees above the horizon. (But I don't measure so that's only a guide).

Approach power.
You fly approaches by speed no N1 settings.

Follow that other people have said above... until you get good enough and develop your own landing technique which noone in the world does. However what I've posted above is what nearly all real pilots use.... so it's a good idea to follow exactly what I said.

"A GARUDA Boeing 737 was travelling at 410kmh, nearly double normal landing speed, when it slammed into Yogyakarta Airport's runway last month, bouncing, bursting into flames and killing 21 people, the crash investigators' report says.

410kmh? WHAT A MORON!

[DizZa]

Oh. and A1.

Make sure your throttle sensitivity is FULL and there is NO nullzone AT ALL for your throttle slider. If it isn't like that then you're not getting the full throttle range.

[a1]

I land at a speed of 120 knots fine. I don't use spoilers and only 15-25 degrees of flaps. Very smooth to me.

[Zaphod]

I land at a speed of 120 knots fine. I don't use spoilers and only 15-25 degrees of flaps. Very smooth to me.

Long runway?

[a1]

Around 7000Ft if you call that long.

[Zaphod]

Around 7000Ft if you call that long.

Yea, but grass, right?

[a1]