[newbie] Bobbing aircraft

[prozaque]

Hi all,

I'm really new to FS (a couple of days) and I am predictably getting very frustrated. I managed to struggle through some of the lessons -- I am stuck at the one with steep turns right now. I'm also trying to fly some practice pattern that I found on the net, but with no progress at all.

There are two main things that really bug me, and I would appreciate any help and advice.

First, most of the times when I need to change something like speed or go into a climb, whenever I have to modify the attitude, the aircraft starts bobbing. I mean, for instance, I pull the stick a bit, and the VS goes up, but if I keep the stick there it starts going down again. So I pull it a bit more, but the VS keeps going down a while then goes up and doesn't stop going up, so decrease the "back pressure", only now the VS goes down quite fast, below 0, and then up again and so on. If at this point I leave the stick in the middle,  take my hand off, then the VS keeps undulating up-down-up... I'm betting you guys are laughing your arses off... Anyway, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, sometimes I can even level it off. If I'm also trying to trim, things tend to go berzerk really fast. I'm guessing the question is the one I hate the most: what am I doing wrong? Is there a proper way to change the attitude?

I think my other issue - is there a way to make rolling out of a turn on the desired heading easier - is meaningless if I don't get a solution to my first one...

I know it's gonna be hard for you to descend to my level, all the more reason for me to express my appreciation for any helpful tips.

Dan

PS: I use joystick, I tried the stick_sensitivity_mode=0 thingie and it makes it a bit worse (now I have to pull the stick visibly for the tiniest effect). Do you happen to know if this setting takes values or if it's binary?

[pepper_airborne]

The 'bobbing'is called a stall. That means your plane is unable to fly and crashed down, deu to a lot of different factors.

In your case, you pull the plane up, but you make it climb to steaply, im presuming your in the default Cessna 172, so put on full power and maintain a steady clim around 80/90 knots without any flaps.

The turning, is just lots of practice, i dont know the bank angle your turning at? You should try staying at the same altitude when flying, this should easy the turn a lot more, thus making it easier to  stay on the correct heading.

Also, on what weather conditions are you flying? If there is heavy weather then that might cause the plane to go up and down.

And last, how are your controls set-up?

[microlight]

Hi prozaque - welcome.

You mentioned trim - sounds like you may not have trimmed the plane for climb. In the default panels you'll find an elevator trim wheel; click on the bottom portion to add 'up' trim, which will have the effect of maintaining the climb pitch without having to pull back on the yoke after the initial rotation.

One of the easiest ways to trim rapidly is to assign a couple of your joystick buttons to trim up and down, which makes life a little easier.

[Nav]

Hi, prozaque, welcome to Simviation. Don't worry, it'll all come right with practice.

On climbing, all other things being equal, if you pull the nose up the aeroplane will lose speed and eventually stall. The answer is to add power before you pull up; and, beyond that, keep the rate of climb reasonable.

To make sure of that you have to train yourself to use the instruments a bit. First of all, the boost gauge - the Cessna cruises at about 21 inches of boost, for a climb, bring it up to maybe 24. Next, watch the airspeed - it's OK to let it drop off a little, but keep it at say 80 knots. If it goes lower, drop the nose a touch, or add more power, so the speed stays right. Next the 'Rate of Climb' indicator, keep that at no more than say 600 feet/minute.

Sounds complicated written down, but you'll find that you soon get the hang of it. You should be able to identify the instruments I've mentioned from the lessons, or alternatively look in the Learning Centre. If you're still confused, ask again on here.

In turns, the wings generate less lift because they're at an angle, and the aircraft tends to sideslip. The answer is that, besides moving the stick sideways, you should ALSO add a little back pressure to hold the nose up. The basic drill is, stick over to induce the bank; then, once you've achieved the required angle, stick almost central and a touch back. Use the horizon as your 'datum', keep the panel in the same position relative to the horizon, and you'll stay level.

Rolling out of a turn, remember that the aeroplane needs time to respond - start rolling out BEFORE you reach the required new course, otherwise you'll overshoot.

One more suggestion - rather than starting fresh every time, save a flight while you're in the air. Then you can call it up quickly and practise any aspect of flying you want to, without all the hassle of taking off, climbing to height etc. every time.

[prozaque]

Thank you all for the kind help.

Where is all the physics I used to know? Your talk about turns illuminated me. Sure thing, one of the elements I kept ignoring was inertia! It takes some time for the pitch to translate into vertical speed and for the stick movement to translate into pitch... I kept pulling because the a/c wouldn't react instantly, then I would try correcting that and overcompensated every single time! Sorry for the useless explanation, but I can't believe how dumb I was! This simulated flight is great, I was treating it as most games..

Now I do better. I've set two buttons on the top of the joystick for elevator trim. How do you do this? Do you gradually apply trim while gradually release the pressure on the stick, or somehow else?


Sorry for my omission - I am now flying the RA Cessna 172 (found about it on this forum).

I usually try not to exceed 20 degrees of bank, and I still over or undershoot my intended heading -- you say it's a matter of practice, so I guess I'm gonna have to practice some more.

Thank you again, and I hope my next questions will be more 'advanced'

[TSC.]

Do you gradually apply trim while gradually release the pressure on the stick, or somehow else?

Your not far off there prozaque, that is how the trim is used, to relieve the pressure you would feel through the controls - when the trim is set correctly, the plane should be able to maintain a steady course without much, if any input on the controls by you. Just remember to start with small changes to the trim, then let the plane settle & re-trim if needed. You will also need to adjust the trim if your change the power/speed at anytime.

Welcome to the 'V' prozaque, & remember, there are no silly questions - just silly answers

TSC.

[FridayChild]

The stick sensitivity parameter is binary.
As for your problems, you are not alone. Of course practice will do you good, but let me share my experience with you. A crappy joystick makes for crappy flying. I've made the mistake of buying the stick you can read about in my signature (I was fascinated by the bells and whistles of force feedback... big mistake because FF in flight simulator is a sad joke), and I was only able to make it slightly better by extensive and time/nerves consuming tweaking. There is just no way it will allow a smooth flying. I constantly have to trim, and the slightest touch on the stick causes major effects on the control surfaces. Most of all, these reactions are not only exaggerate, they are also inconsistent. Which means that the very same amount and direction of movement applied to the stick at different times causes different reactions in the control surfaces. It's almost useless to try to fly leveled or to make a smooth climb/descent at a constant rate; it's also very hard to make a coordinated turn. That doesn't mean I can't fly; it's just that I'm constantly fighting with the controller and this is spoiling the fun at the point that I think I will ditch FS altogether until I've saved enough to buy a really good yoke.
I don't know if this applies to you, but just in case...

[prozaque]

Thanks all for making me feeling so welcome.

It's getting better all the time, as the song goes. Initially I had somehow got the idea that I should be able to change attitude in a matter of seconds, like say from straight-n-level at 110 KIAS to stable descent 500 fpm at 70 KIAS in a few seconds. After your input, I reconsidered, I am now doing it slower, waiting for the plane so to say... It goes much better, no spikes, no stalls, I am getting smoothly to the new attitude/speed but slowly... for the above change maybe 30 seconds, maybe even more (including trim)... Is that the way to go, or I should still try to speed things up? Now I am able to recover smoothly from stalls I create myself intentionally (I cut the engine, or I pull up hard, or I do a real steep bank - that's the worst). Turns are still a pain, but I'm getting there... I want to say this to any newbie out there: guys, it really pays off to READ before flying

FridayChild, I am sorry for your issue, but I think it wasn't the joystick, it was me, simply because now it's getting a lot better. I don't know if it was your post, but I decided on the Extreme 3D Pro over the force feedback one after reading something here on bad force feedback with FS. Just in case, thanks for the heads up.

I've been browsing this forum a lot lately and I really want to say kudoz for such a great community! I hope I'll stick around.

Dan

[pepper_airborne]

Indeed, reading is your friend, and try getting to know all of one plane before moving one, so start out with the cessna, then the beechcraft, kingair, etc.

And, a lot of things, like landing, just require a lot of practice and usualy can all be done by using a few set of standard rules.

[JLCGull]

Even when you get pretty good at changing speed/attitude keep in mind that the airplane will hunt for its trim speed. Real airplanes do this too.

Say you are all set up and trimmed for and flying straight and level with your hands off. Then you give the stick a little push forward. The aircraft nose drops and the speed slowly increases a little. Now let go of the stick completely. The nose of the airplane will come back up but to a point above straight and level until the speed begins to drop. Then the nose will drop again to a point below straight and level until the speed builds again. In a real Cessna 172 this might happen through three or four oscillations, each a little less extreme than the previous, until the aircraft settles down. It seems like in the simulator, at least for the Cessna, it would go on forever unless the pilot interceded with an ever-so-gentle correction. Either way it is a real part of real flying and it doesn't hurt to get used to damping out the oscillation manually, just as you would in the real thing.

 I also find that the effect of the loss of lift of the wings in a steep turn seems a tiny bit delayed in the simulator as compared to the real thing. To maintain altitude it seems like you have to roll into the turn, keeping an eye on the VSI, and then add a little back stick.  In my experience in real aircraft one can make the entire thing as a coordinated move, not as a two step process, but doing that in Sim always results in gaining altitude.

Lastly, in very steep turns the aircraft wants to continue to steepen its bank angle. You will wind up with slightly crossed controlls...that is rudder over in the direction of the turn, but stick slightly back the opposite way and with a little back pressure. Again, this is a correct simulation of the real thing. My flight instructor (in gliders) explained it to me as having to do with the large differrence in airspeed between the inside wingtip and the outer wingtip, so it should be more pronounced in long wingspan, slow flying aircraft than in short wingspan fast ones. I don't know if that is the actual case in FS04, though.

Roll out of the turn about 5 degrees ahead of the desired heading for every 10 degrees of bank. So in order to roll out of a 20 deg. bank right turn at heading 090 start to bring your wings level as the heading indicator passes 080. Look for a tolerance of +/- 5 degrees at first. In other words anywhere between 85 and 95 deg. on the heading indicator.  Practice and refine it until you have it down instictively. Again it will differ for different aircraft.

 Compasses are affected by acceleration (turning, climbing, diving) For now don't bother with the "wet" compass...stick with the directional gyro for now.

The acronym for the wet compass effect is: ANDS

Accelerate   North            Decelerate   South

When you are accelerating, as in taking off or climbing the compass reads too far north. When you are decelerating (slowing or decending) the compass reads too far south. Just for kicks check it out sometime.

Hve fun flying.

JLCGull.

[FridayChild]

What an interesting topic this turned out to be. Worth a sticky perhaps. Sometimes the most obvious things tend to be the most overlooked.  :)

[Nav]

prozaque, JLCGull's post put me in mind of another factor that you have to bear in mind - that the control surfaces change their roles as attitude changes.

Think of the tail assembly in level flight. The elevators are horizontal, and therefore control up and down movement - the rudder is vertical, and therefore controls direction. Now imagine the same aeroplane in a 90-degree bank. The elevators are now vertical, and 'become' the rudder.

For that reason, once you're in a bank, you'll find that back pressure on the stick, besdies holding the nose up, has the effect of tightening the turn (which is all to the good).

If you'd like a bit of fun, I suggest that you take advantage of the fact that, in the Sim, you can do silly things without risking your neck. Put on a good amount of power, fix your eyes on the horizon ahead, and do a 360-degree roll. At different stages of the roll you'll find that, to keep the nose level with the horizon, you'll have to use both the elevators and the rudder in the opposite directions to normal. Tricky at first, but it builds the instinctive coordination that is the key to flying - real or simulated.

Later maybe try it in a more powerful aeroplane - but preferably not at low level, and NOT over the Melbourne Cricket Ground! :-

[Bird-Nerd]

On the topic of climbing, One way that helps is to get some speed and power before the climb, but not have the throttle all the way up. as you go into the climb and start slowing down, ease the throttle up until it's alll the way up. this will give you a couple extra thousand or hundred feet! One thing though is that the aircraft needs to have a good engine or else it won't be able to pull when gavity starts to kick in!

[Conan Edogawa]

I learned "flying" without any lessons. I'm doing them now just to know that I didn't miss anything.

I'm doing FlightSim since more than 8 years now and I just really learned flying the 747.

IMO: The lessons are full of bugs!

[harrybasset]

I am a grey haired relative newcomer to Flight Sims and have similar problems in controlling my default Cessna 172. I use a CH yoke and the elevator control seems very imprecise, if I ease back on the yoke I get pitch up but the VSI goes up to maximum and if I ease off the VSI will then go down to maximum. I have tried trimming and can get almost level flight (Minimal indicated ascent or descent) but when I touch the yoke the wild climb/descent gyrations start again. I have lubricated the yoke as it did seem to be very slightly stiff/notchy but this has not helped much. It feels like the elevators are fluttering, could I improve things by adjusting some settings?