Problem after take off

[RetaLiatE_RV]

Hi everyone, new member here.

I'm encountering a problem which I hope someone could help me with. When I take off with Cessna 172, or any other plane with a propeller for that matter, it starts to make a sudden 40 degree bank to the left. To level it out I have to apply a full right aileron trim AND a little bit of right rudder trim as well. At first I thought it was wind so I flew in a created flight with zero wind and the same thing happened. Weird thing is that as I start gaining altitude, the plane doesn't turn to the left as drastically as it did after the take off. I still have problems maintaining the same heading even after trimming the plane every way possible but that's a different problem. What I'm wondering is why the aircraft goes to the left so abruptly, it shouldn't be like that. Also, when I fly the Flying Lessons with Rod, the 45 degree bank does not happen. Very weird. Any suggestions?

[codered]

If your realism sliders are full, then you are probably experiencing the torque and p-factor on the aircraft.  This is what causes the plane to pull to one side.  Real prop pilots have to do the same thing, by applying opposite rudder and perhaps a bit of aileron to correct for this.

Also, be sure to calibrate your controllers to be sure they are working correctly.

As far as flying with Rod, I don't know.  I have never flown with him, and I don't plan on it.  Besides, I already have my pilots license, why should I let him tell me how to fly my plane.

Welcome to the forum RetaLiatE_RV.  This has got to be the most helpful place in FS.

[RetaLiatE_RV]

Codered,

Thank you for your welcome and I appreciate you replying so quickly, this is an awesome forum. You are absolutely right, I had torque and p-factor set all the way to the max and I didn't realize they were the ones to blame.. It doesn't bother me at all as long as I know now that this is a natural reaction of an airplane in real life because I like to make my sim flight as realistic as possible. Since you have your pilot license, do you feel practicing with a FS on your own computer can help you when you go for real flight training as far as handling the stick, knowing the instruments and maybe knowing how to communicate with ATC? I'm looking to get my PPL in a year or two and I thought this was a good and a cheap way to help me with my skills but I'd like to hear from you and the rest who have done real flying and how they compare it to FS and how it can help. Thanks again.

PS

Do you suggest I fly with Gyro Drift on? For more realistic flight, should I fly with true airspeed or indicated airspeed?

[codered]

Flight sim is great to help you with the basics.  Pattern entry, aircraft manuvers, instrument recognition and use, navigation, etc.  Of course with the home version of flight sim it is easy to get lazy.  For example, when you make an approach to an uncontrolled airport, standard proceedure is to enter on a 45 degree to downwind, and follow the pattern all the way to landing.  In FS it is tempting sometimes to just dive for the runway.

If you understand and know the basics of flight in FS, it will make real flying that much easier.  Of course there is no real substitue for flying in real turbulance, g-forces, etc.  There are all kinds of topics at this forum that deal with how to make your flight sim more realistic.

Enjoy!

[BFMF]

Using the Flight Simulator is a great way to learn the basics. After almost 10 years of using MSFS, I began my flight training. I was familiar with a lot of concepts that most begginners wouldn't know at first. I was comfortable with most of the cockpit controlls, instruments, gauges, and a few procedures. On the other hand, I had developed a few bad habits that my instructor has worked hard to correct.

Overall, I think it's a great way to get your feet wet before immersing your entire self

[beefhole]

As a pilot training in real life and someone who has constant problems with my joystick, I can tell you that your problems on takeoff are probably a result of both.  The P-factor and torque (left turning tendencies) do not turn your aircraft on a 45, but they definitely do need to be countered.  The other half is mostly likely your joystick. If it's a logitech, then it is most definitely your joystick.  Ha, anyone who read this before i modded it dont tell anyone im a moron.

[RetaLiatE_RV]

beefhole, well maybe I exaggarated, it was more like 35 degree bank, however, I'm handling it pretty well now with the use of right rudder. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with my joystick, it's a Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar and I've used it with Falcon 4.0, Flanker 2.5, Lock-On, IL-2 Sturmovik, you know name it, and I never had such problems (well in IL-2 my plane would be difficult to handle on the runway just before the take off as well obviously because it is affected by torque and p-factor).

I had developed a few bad habits that my instructor has worked hard to correct.

Would you mind explaining what kind of bad habits you have developed?

[Nav]

Retaliate, joystick calibration could certainly be part of the problem.  If it is 'force-feedback', don't be tempted to put a heavy setting on the centring spring.  A lot of people expect the joystick to spring back to the central position, as in a video game.  Real ones don't, they have a very light feel, because of course they only react to the forces that the aeroplane is applying.

The other problem is probably late reaction/over-reaction - you are letting the swing develop before you counter it, and then overdoing it.  This is a common problem starting out in real flying, as well as FS, and it quickly comes right with practice.

Hold the stick lightly, keep your eye on the horizon, and counter any tendency for a wing to drop with a gentle opposite bank, as soon as you 'feel' it start.  Ailerons only, the rudder has only a very limited role once you're in the air.

[RetaLiatE_RV]

I did a little experiment by going into realism settings and minimizing everything. I went to fly, and everything was OK, the plane was flying straight (autorudder was turned off). Then one by one I started to turn on my realism settings to the max and my plane did not start to bank to the left until I turned the p-factor on. The problem is everytime I take off and start going to the left, I apply full right aileron and rudder trim but it only slows the bank, it doesn't correct the problem and my plane is still turning left. So I went and applied Autorudder and the plane began to fly straight. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, I thought rudders are only used to correct slight aligning problems, not to actually be used throughout the whole flight to have the plane maintain the same heading. Also, my joystick is already calibrated so I don't know anymore.

[Nav]

OK, Retal, I think I see it now.....

First of all, let's try to keep it simple.

[RetaLiatE_RV]

Well, thank you for the help Nav and I'm sorry I had not specified I do not have a force feed back. I did everything you said but nothing worked so I reinstalled the game and started from scratch again. I put the realism to the max and left out Autorudder, and here's what happened. When I first took off, the plane reacted the same way it did before, it banked to the left and held it there at 30 degrees 2 minutes after take off and kept turning but very, very slowly. I tried to level it out with the ailerons without trimming anything, and I didn't use rudder either, but after I straightened it out, it just started to do its thing again. I decided to pitch down a bit to gain some speed while holding the plane level and after gaining about 105 knots, my cessna stopped turning to the left and flew the way I wanted it to. I did another thing, while in the air, I approached the runway and slowed down to 65 knots and to my surprise, the plane did NOT bank to the left, it flew level. I'm getting confused here

[Nav]

Retal, WHY did you put the realism to max. and turn off the autorudder?  That's the direct opposite of what I suggested?

Look, the object is not somehow to 'set' the aeroplane so that it flies straight and level.  Flying, even on FS, is a continuous/coordinated process involving keeping speed, pitch, attitude, and everything else in the correct relationship with each other.

Once the way of doing that 'clicks', it's almost easy.  But you only learn it through experience.

Why not try the Rod Machado lessons?  He's good, and you'll rapidly pick up the basics from there.

[RetaLiatE_RV]

[quote]Retal, WHY did you put the realism to max. and turn off the autorudder?

[Nav]

Sounds good, Retal, Rod will have you 'flying' in no time!

Looking at your earlier post, speed - or the lack of it - could be a lot of your problem.  The Cessna may have been getting close to stalling speed - climbing out, or even in level flight, that would make it drop a wing.

Don't raise the nose too high after takeoff, or throttle back too much - you should leave the Cessna at full throttle in the climb, and it's best not to go below 80% thrust in level flight.  Keep the speed at 75 knots or above.

To recap - with an ordinary joystick you MUST have autorudder on, otherwise you can't turn when taxiing, or hold it straight on the takeoff run.  I suggest that you assign your button controls to fore-and-aft pitch (elevator trim) - unless you have a wheel on your joystick, which is an even better way, more like the real thing.

As to the realism settings, going from 'Easy' to 'Hard' is a piece of cake once you've got the general hang of things.  Not so easy the other way round!  Give it a little time, mate!  :)

[beefhole]

Quick note, i know Nav didn't mean this but just wanted to clear up any confusion, having auto-rudder turned off does not mean that you cannot control the rudder with your joystick twist.  It simply provides automatic coordination of aileron and rudders during turns, which is more important in smaller aircraft than anything else but still plays a role in the bigger ones.