flight plans

[gehubba]

hi all, im trying to fly from Heathrow london to kennedy intl new york but i would like to fly a flight plan that bears a resemblance to that used by real pilots. I have tried everything, vor-vor doesnt come up with a flight plan, high altitude takes all over north america before getting to new york. i know i could fly direct but that isnt true to life. does anybody know where i can get accurate flight plans that are true to real life?

gh

[ozzy72]

Hey gh, try http://www.fltplan.com you can compile a real-world plan there (afraid its only GA not commercial, but with private jets and the like it should be fairly accurate)

Ozzy

[Nexus]

Here's a good flightplan between EGLL and KJFK

EGLL SID BUZAD UT420 WELIN UN57 POL UN601 TLA UL613 FINDO UM87 BAMRA UN584 SUM UM125 SIDER G11 MY G3 KEF 5E20 YR J564 PQI J55 ENE STAR KJFK

Bold letters indicate airway (or else I'd have to type some 40 fixes), italic is desired departure/arrival route from/to airport.

Depending on how realistic you want to be, some airlines use the NAT, short for North Atlantic Track, when crossing the atlantic ocean.
Those waypoints looks abit odd (5620N, 5830N, 5940N etc..) and I don't know if they are a part of the default MS navdatabase. The tracks will change on daily basis depending on the jetstreams. But like I said before, not all airlines make use of the NAT's, and instread they fly a more northern route.

Good luck!

[nickle]

Likely airlines fly the GPS shortest distance route and modify according to winds and weather.

[Nexus]

It's not that easy Nickle.
Dispatchers are analyzing many different route options before choosing one. The shortest distance from America to Europe would in most cases involve a trip into english airpace, which is very costly. If they are able to, they will avoid going over england...the flight may be a little bit longer, but it will not cost as much for the company. Flight planning at that level seems to be a real pain  :)

And even if the dispatcher is satisfied with the route, he still needs approval from EVERY flight controller enroute to arrival airport. There is a possibility that the ATC somewhere in Europe will reject the flight plan because his airspace is just too crowded at that altitude.

So it is not just to hit the GPS direct button and modify the route to give you the best flight conditions, you're assigned a given plan, now stick with it

[nickle]

I've not heard that overflights of England or any other country would be taxed.  Landing fees yes.  Overflight no. Your reference pls.

Flight plans are just that: Plans. They are dynamic and subject to modification by the aircrew and by air traffic control. You make the process sound like it is a fixed cumbersome process.  No global air traffic system could operate as you believe.

Your belief of "sticking" to a flight plan is bunk.

[Nexus]

So I guess you haven't heard of overflight fees, eh?
I won't argue about this, since You're showing some real *nice* attitude towards me.

But at least take a look at this page, and you'll get an idea of what I talk about. But I guess that page is just rubbish, since you haven't heard of overflight fees....

[nickle]

Sorry about your view on my attitude.
Tango Sierra buddy.

Fees for USA overflight and ocean transits are a surprise.  Never leave a stone unturned to scam $.

The fee is calculated for GPS routes.  Shortest distance to destination regardless of deviation for jet stream or weather.  So why avoid GB if fuel is far more expensive than routing?

One more time: The Air Traffic Control System is dynamic what ever else you may believe.  Am I to believe that an controller in East Podunk Ger would prevent a scheduled airline flight departure from NYC to Berlin because of 5 hour forecast traffic?

FAA stuff:

4. In Part 187, add appendix B to read as follows:

[[Page 36009]] Appendix B to Part 187--Fees for FAA Services for Certain Flights

   (a) Applicability. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c)of this appendix, this appendix applies to any person who conducts a flight through U.S.-controlled airspace that does not include a landing or takeoff in the United States. U.S.-controlled airspace is
defined as all U.S. airspace either directly owned by the United States or allocated to the United States by the International Civil Aviation Organization or by other countries. This is further defined, for this section only, as enroute and oceanic airspace. Enroute airspace is defined, for this section only, as airspace where primarily radar-based air traffic services are provided.
Oceanic airspace is defined, for this section only, as airspace where primarily procedural air traffic services are provided.
   (b) Governmental flights. This appendix does not apply to any military or civil flight operated by the United States Government or by any foreign government.
   (c) Canada-to-Canada flights. This appendix will not apply to any operator of a flight that takes off and lands in Canada, without an intermediate stop outside Canada, that operates in U.S.- controlled airspace.
   (d) Services. Persons covered by paragraph (a) of this appendix must pay a fee for the use of certain services, including but not limited to the following:
   (1) Air traffic management.
   (2) Communications.
   (3) Navigation.
   (4) Radar surveillance, including separation services.
   (5) Flight information services.
   (6) Procedural control.
   (7) Emergency services and training.
   (e) Methodology for the computation of fees.
   (1) For the use of any of the services listed in paragraph (d) of this appendix, the fee is computed based on the distance flown in either enroute or oceanic airspace (U.S.-controlled airspace.)
Distance flown is based on the great circle distance (GCD) for the actual point of entry and the actual point of exit of U.S.- controlled airspace. Fees are assessed using the methodology presented in paragraph (e)(2) of this appendix. Where actual entry and exit points are not available, the best available flight data
will be used to calculate the fee.
   (2) A User (operator of an overflight) is assessed a fee for each 100 nautical miles (or portion thereof) flown in U.S.- controlled airspace. Separate calculations are made for transiting enroute and oceanic airspace. The total fee charged for an overflight between any two cities is equal to the sum of these two
charges. This relationship is summarized as:

Rij = $20.16*DOij + $37.43*DEij,

Interesting info.  Most flights land in the US and therefore the overflight issue USA is a moot point.

[Nexus]

YES!
If one ATC enroute doesn't accept the flight plan, the dispatcher has to do the WHOLE procedure again, and choose another suitable way to the destination. Maybe he has to choose a lower altitude than the optimal etc...

What you should know here, that the whole "accept" thing is done some hours before the actual flight departures. When the aircraft is airborne, it's cleared all the way to arrival airport. It's not like some ATC just suddenly decides to cancel your flight plan or anything like that...

My father's friend works as a dispatcher, so I've had the chance to get to know his line of work pretty good.
English overflight fees are expensive. The fee is there because the airlines use the resp. countries air traffic controllers and system.

and BTW...There's no reason to bring in FAA regulations, since I'm talking about the UK specifically. UK is a part of the JAA...

[nickle]

Doubt your proposition of one ATC cancelling a scheduled international flight.

Doubt that the flight plan filing is as clumsy as you make it out.

If true, would be a major international conflict of interest.  Retaliation might be the result.  It isn't a significant issue or it would be in the news.  Regardless of what your friend says.  

What is to prevent the Captain from requesting different routing and altitude?  Because he cannot deviate from the approved Plan?

Somehow I realize that Europe including GB is different from the USA.

[Nexus]

Jesus christ, what is there not to believe?
You don't believe that:

The dispatcher uses several hi-tech software to find the most suitable route where weather, aircraft weight, overflight fees, pax with connection flights, fuel economy and many more factors comes into play.

Furthermore, you don't believe that when the dispatcher is ready with his flightplan, he will e-mail it to the various controllers enroute. If the plan isn't accepted, the controller will notify the dispatcher, and he has to start all over again.

Aside from fuel, one of the biggest costs are overflight charges, which you probably also won't believe.

Somebody please tell me, why am I still talking to you?

[nickle]

International flight destinations,  routes and altitudes are known and activated when required.  No crew is planning from scratch.

The all powerful EU ground controller does not send his disapproval and request another flight plan guess from the dispatcher.

The flight might be given different routing and altitude.  Nothing says the Captain can't request other routing and altitude.  Long distance transocean flights likely have substantial enroute options as to route and altitude.  Less so in terminal areas.  GPS great circle routes are the norm unless wind and weather are adverse.

[Nexus]

Powerful EU ground controller?
I guess you're talking about Eurocontrol in Bryssels, which handles the CFMU (central flow management unit).
The CFMU is like a computer where flightplans through Europe is sent. The computer then analyzes the airspace and will either ACCEPT the flightplan or REJECT it.

I'm out of this thread, nice talking to you.  :)

[nickle]

Impressive!
A computer in charge of (and responsible for?) EU air traffic.
RTD2 responses no doubt.
Should work good for Enterprise.

Numerous air traffic controllers not required.
Just a tape playing "Regret, unable; Fly your flight plan".

At one time there were published transocean routes.  Made irrelevant by GPS.

[Billerator]

No I have to say that the flight does have to be planned and agreed by all the ATC. Obvoiusly ATC still has influence over the exact flight path, but the planned flight has to be confirmed and accepted.

I remember reading this in a book which described a whole flight from LHR to JFK.

Obviously ( well I'm not sure here ) the flight wont be totally dismissed, but the altitude will have to be adjusted due to the ammount of traffic in the air.

In cases of military traffic or military cargo, there have been a number of cases where the government refuses the use of its airspace. (a few cases with Russian equipment to Egypt etc. )