RAM Timings

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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:17 pm

As a quick idea.. you may want to try a clean boot test environment, by that I mean, remove the drives and devices you do not need to boot from the system and go into the BIOS and shut down things you dont need. The idea would be to give the power to the system for testing which if your PSU is at its limits, may change the results of the experiment.

Also, take some voltage readings... booting normal, then at high clock, then with devices out of the system and clocked.

If you see defined increases and decreases, then the PSU is definitely in question

(in my opinion it is crap anyway
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:21 pm

[quote][quote]Thanks again NickN,

Working on this after an early night and an earlier morning
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby congo » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:26 pm

Just checking some anamoly, back in a sec.

Ok, The math didn't look right for the 333mhz divider, I'm getting 196mhz, not +-212mhz.....

cpu multi is 11x
fsb is 250,
HT is 4x
mem is 196mhz 2-3-2-5 1T

If you are limited by price and availability being down under... if you find one you like, post it and I will look it over for you.


I really would appreciate that, just let me get back up off the floor after seeing the PSU prices. My graphics card didn't cost much more  :P
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:44 pm

Just checking some anamoly, back in a sec.

Ok, The math didn't look right for the 333mhz divider, I'm getting 196mhz, not +-212mhz.....

cpu multi is 11x
fsb is 250,
HT is 4x
mem is 196mhz 2-3-2-5 1T



Very intersting..

OK, so now we know there is something in the equation that may be out of place... It could be Asus has simply moved the CPU/DRAM ratio up the curve to a different FSB/MULT point.

This is why we have to treat it as a science experiment.. there is the theory, and then the result.

Start raising the FSB and check the settings as you go up. See how it fairs and keep an eye out for the CPUz Memory tab CPU/DRAM ratio change. Watch that FAB4 +1T.. as I said you may want to set it as I posted @ 2T until you get your test completed to see where the memory freq is actually at when its crashing on 1T

Start working it with the numbers I posted. I do not know what your FSB scale tops out at, but I would work it and see how it fairs.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby congo » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:49 pm

My FSB has gotten to around 318 with some settings, also my HT link can handle speeds well in excess of 1000mhz, but that's at 2T CR, so, we'll see how we go.

I was thinking when you first posted the predicted memory speed of around 212mhz, that it looked like what my memory would run on a half CPU multi.

I just confirmed this with:
cpu multi = 10.5
FSB=262
cpu = 2757
mem = 212
mem @ ddr333
Last edited by congo on Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm

My FSB has gotten to around 318 with some settings, also my HT link can handle speeds well in excess of 1000mhz, but that's at 2T CR, so, we'll see how we go.



Most Asus boards will do 2200 (1100) HT but we want to keep that below 2000(total) (1000) for our experiments. The more crap you add to the equation, the harder it is to lock down the issues.


The formula I gave you was based on the typical Asus BIOS programmer sets the CPU/DRAM ratio based on the level of FSB set in the BIOS. They normally do it at 250MHz.. but I have seen some @ 260. That is why it may be different. They could have raised, lowered or even screwed with the table too.

You have to work this experiment, recording the multipler, HT, FSB, Mem speed and CPU/DRAM ratio at every test point. Once you have all the data then we can assess what the wall is, and keep in mind, as you go up in FSB the CPU 2750 wall will most likely be lowered to 2600 or under. Its not about GHz, its about getting the FSB/Mem to the highest point, then finding the most stable processor GHz with that FSB/DRAM speed number. In some cases it is better to drop FSB so you can a higher CPU clock @ 1T


With AMD processor Ghz plays a much larger role than with Conroe because it pumps the memory bus at the same time it is raised but true raw power in real world use comes from that memory chatting with the processor as fast as it can so it is more important to run 1T and the highest FSB/Mem possible with the LEAST ratio on the divider. DDR333 or 5:3 is the best for that.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:01 pm

My FSB has gotten to around 318 with some settings, also my HT link can handle speeds well in excess of 1000mhz, but that's at 2T CR, so, we'll see how we go.

I was thinking when you first posted the predicted memory speed of around 212mhz, that it looked like what my memory would run on a half CPU multi.

I just confirmed this with:
cpu multi = 10.5
FSB=262
cpu = 2757
mem = 212
mem @ ddr333


OK, then Asus DID duck with the CPU/DRAM numbers, and they did it with the 1/2 multiplier

see... that is why you need to work this out on paper!!
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:15 pm

I have to run but will be back later this evening.. its noon my time and I will be back around 8pm

Keep testing... find that wall for 2T and 1T

After you find the wall you have to do stability tests too because posting, booting and running full boar are 3 different things

highest FSB/Mem @ 5:3

Dont worry about the processor speed in Ghz right now but you may need to work that multiplier a bit to see how it fairs on the memory stability. Even try going for a lower than usual mult such as 7-8-9 (with their available halves) when you get in the high FSB range.

Lossen FAB4 to what I posted. I dont think loosening it up any more will be beneficial (you can experiment though) so try to work it with what I posted

EDIT: The only thing I use 3D Mark for is this exact test.. stability under a 3D Load. Even with that I have seen FS9/X still force a stability issue to the surface but 3D Mark gets me very close.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:27 pm

I would not mess with A64 tweaker or any of that other software right now... I would probably try a power reduced system as I mentioned above though

When you get to the A64 Tweaker part the values to raise would be

Trc
Trfc
Trwt
Twr

Asynth Latency
Read Preable

The rest leave alone and never mess with fab4 or CMD rate in A64 on the fly.

Even the other values can cause a lockup if changed on the fly. You may need to test raising the values by scheduling a reboot with them enabled. Safe mode may become your best friend in that phase of the experiment.. but for right now, stick to the BIOS numbers you can work with on boot.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:19 pm

My FSB has gotten to around 318 with some settings, also my HT link can handle speeds well in excess of 1000mhz, but that's at 2T CR, so, we'll see how we go.

I was thinking when you first posted the predicted memory speed of around 212mhz, that it looked like what my memory would run on a half CPU multi.

I just confirmed this with:
cpu multi = 10.5
FSB=262
cpu = 2757
mem = 212
mem @ ddr333



Forgot my wallet...
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby congo » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:58 pm

HTx3
fsb=262
cpu multi = 10.5 = 2760mhz
mem=212 @ 333 divider & 2-3-2-5 1T

Notes:
Large FFT Prime test (ram stress) failed after 8 mins.
At this point CPU fan was increasing rpm after trigger temp pf 51*C was reached.

Test failed when I touched ram to feel temps at 2.8v, I was holding case with other hand.

_____________________________

Now lowering cpu multi to 10x and fsb to 255 for next test, this will give same memory speed of 212mhz at same timings, but relaxes cpu and fsb

speed.

This is to determine if the instability is primarily due to ram limitation or not.

Result: 20 mins prime stable, test terminated.

_____________________________________

Push speed limit at ram's rated timings of 2-3-2-5 with 1T
Increased HTT (FSB) to 262.62 mhz resulting in 218.85mhz memspeed.

Orthos Large FFT prime test FAILED after several minutes.
___________________________________

At this point, I determined my control over the tests was not adequate and decided to disregard all results obtained so far and begin re-testing.
___________________________________

Testing RAM max speeds

I killed the ram divider and set 1:1 ratio (DDR400) for testing ram max speed at advertised timings of 2-3-2-5 with 1T.

FSB=218=mem frequency
cpu multi=8x (dropped vcore)
Vram=2.8v
HT multi = 4x

Result: Prime stable orthos large FFT test for 15 minutes, test terminated.

Failed to record PSU voltages during test.
_____________________________________

Increased HTT to 220mhz under same conditions as previous test

Prime failed after a few minutes. Conclude memory maxes under 220mhz stable at advertised timings with 1T.

3.3v sensor detects intermittent vatiation from 3.28v to 3.3v during test and at idle.
5v sensor shows 5.03v steady and 12v shows 12.03v steady.
___________________________________

Testing for max HTT speed

FSB=301
mem frequency = 150mhz @ ddr200 divider and advertised timings at 2-3-2-5 with 1T.
cpu multi=6x
vcore = 1.38v
Vram=2.7v
HT multi = 3x

Result - Large FFT prime test stable with 12v sensor fluctuations from 11.97 to 12.03 and 3.3v fluctuations from 3.28 to 3.3v

Test terminated.
_____________________

Increase HTT to 320mhz with conditions as per previous test.

12v sensor variation 11.90v to 12.03 but mainly steady at 11.97
3.3v dipped occasionally to 3.28v but was mainly steady at 3.3v
5v is steady at 5.03v

13 minutes prime stable. Test Terminated. Maximum FSB unknown at relaxed settings
_________________________________

HTT increased to 325mhz with other parameters as above.

Prime stable for 4 minutes
_______________________

HTT increased to 330mhz with other parameters as above.

System locked up during test.
_______________________________________________

This next test will attempt to find max HTT with fastest memory speed at the ram's advertised timings and 1T

HT multi = 3x
cpu multi = 6x
mem divider = ddr266

Set 200mhz memory with HTT around 300mhz with clockgen,
Result = system crash when setting appplied
Preliminary conclusion: DDR 266 divider not suitable because crash occurs before reasonable memory speed can be obtained.
______________________________


*************

Testing for max memspeed at advertised timings under DDR333 divider.

HT multi = 3x
cpu multi = 6x
mem divider = ddr333
mem= 200mhz
2-3-2-5 1T with secondary timings at system standard SPD
FSB = 266mhz

Prime Stable with Orthos Large FFT test.
___________________________________

Test as above with:

memory = 212mhz
HTT = 283mhz

Power sensor shows 12v fluctuating down to 11.90v again, but mainly between 11.97 and 12.03v
3.3v fluctuating down 3.28v to 3.3v

Result: 15 mins prime stable, test terminated.
________________________________

Test as above with:

memory = 218mhz
HTT = 290mhz

Result immediate failure ( ? ), reset test - primed 5 minutes stable. Reboot at these settings to verify stability with another test.
____________________________

Set parameters in bios instead of clockgen

Clockgen reports:
HTT=292
MEM=219
cpu =1752 (6x multi)

result:
Last edited by congo on Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby congo » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:41 am

**************

Memory Divider at DDR400 1:1, 2T command rate

Testing various settings at cas3 relaxed timings of 3-4-4-11 12-14-5-3 2T

275/275/275mhz is known to be stable

Following tests at 1.39vcore, 2.8vram

Test is Orthos Large FFT prime (ram test)

3x HT multi
cpu=9.5x multi = 2660mhz
HTT = 280
MEM=266mhz

Prime stable
______________________________

3x HT multi
cpu=9.5x multi = 2703mhz
HTT = 284
MEM=270mhz

Prime stable
____________________________

3x HT multi
cpu=9.5x multi = 2754mhz
HTT = 290
MEM=275mhz

Prime stable 5 mins
_______________________________


This test was done because it failed on a previous occasion while doing

preliminary tests.

3x HT multi
cpu=9.5x multi = 2760mhz
HTT = 291
MEM=276mhz

2 mins prime stable
test terminated
_______________________

added vcore to 1.42v, due to known stability issue with cpu.

continued testing with higher HTT

3x HT multi
cpu=9.5x multi = 2804mhz
HTT = 295
MEM=280mhz

Failed 4mins into test

Note* I had this memory stable at 280mhz before with some different

settings.
_________________________


Lowered Vcore to 1.39v
Set timings 3-4-4-8
Last edited by congo on Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby congo » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:22 am

*************************

Max CPU speed test Using Orthos Small FFT CPU Stress test.

HT multi @ 3x
HTT=255
mem=255 @ DDR400 Divider - timings 3-4-4-8
Last edited by congo on Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby Nick N » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:06 pm

I can pass on a few things

1. You will have to raise Vcore. There is no getting around that if you want to push the memory controller. The traditional northbridge memory controller is part of the A64 CPU, not the motherboard IC and therefore it requires higher Vcore to keep the CPU stable well past the designed q of the processor.

2. When you raised Vcore the temp was excessive as compared to what I have seen in the past for similar processor. Typically you should be able to run a 1.65-1.70 Vcore with the right heatsink system and mainatin about 55c. It may creep up a tad higher however its not so much the temp itself when it gets to 53-56c, but the speed of heat conductivity and transfer taking place. You can have 55c crash on a cheap HSF and work fine on a good one

3. The voltage drops as you increased Vcore indicate the 3.3-5v rail may have met their match. When you see a 12v drop from a Vcore increase its an indication the PSU 3.3+5v cross regulation to the 12v has peaked and drawing the 12v rail down in order to maintain. That drop also indicates the memory is loosing current as well.

4. I am not sure about Everest when it comes to monitoring however it may be reading the AMD K8 internal temp monitor just fine. I do know the program SPEEDFAN comes with support to read the true AMD K8 internal sensor. Some programs read 5-8c cooler than the AMD K8 internal. It is possible your current CPU cooler is simply not up to the task because if the readings you are getting are not from the true core of the processor it may be hotter than you think. You must properly enable the K8 function in SPEEDFAN to see the true core temp as the processor sees it.


When I started running the Sandy well over a year or so ago I was on a Thermaltake Vocano http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835106035 which did the job very well. I moved to a Zalman http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835118004 later as I was playing with other processors that required a bit more in that area.


There is a chip on the motherboard for the clock generator. This IC is rarely cooled with a heatsink of any type. One thing I always do is find all the cookers on the motherboard using a thermal probe and glue a heatsink on them. The clockgen IC will usually get hot enough to blister a finger without such cooling. I do not know where it is located on your board. With a good picture I could probably locate it, most likely somewhere around the memory banks. Its a rectangular shaped IC about 1/4" x 3/4" and during high clock you should have no problem finding it by careful touch. Typical PLL clock gen chips have a number that starts with: ICSxxxxx


EDIT: I found a picture of the board http://www.pcper.com/image.php?aid=98&img=board_big.jpg

I see 3 possibilities for the PLL.

At the top/center where the hole is showing just above the CPU socket, look to the left of that hole about 1/2 inch higher than the hole and you will see a rectagular IC. Check that one for heat.

And other possibility is just above/center/right of the blue PCIE slot.

And another would be the IC located next to the top edge of the floppy controller plug

EDIT: I see one other possibility but I have never seen a PLL located at the bottom of a board. Bottom left just under the black SATA plugs next to the BIOS chip

Run a high stable clock for a few minutes and check those IC's carefully for heat. If they are simply warm, its not a problem but if one of them is cooking, carefully epoxy of a heatsink on it may net a more stable clock.

typical Asus El-cheapo fan on the chipset

If my memory serves me right, the rated speed of the A8N PLL is 300Mhz. Anything higher by 10Mhz+ and I think you are loosing more than gaining even if you can run stable. I am curious about running a 9x300 @ DDR333, Vcore @ 1.5-1.55. If the math is correct the memory will run @ 270Mhz @ 2.8v and the CPU at 2700.

I do think from the tests you have run, 1T may not be possible, stable, on those sticks above 240Mhz. We need to find out if the math on the 1/2 multipliers is accurate at higher bus speeds. Running 3-4-4-11 1T @ 9.5 x 285 1.55 Vcore your CPU should be at 2707.5 and the memory around 225-226. If it isn't and running lower, then there could be a break for you in that. If it wont run 1T at 225-226 with a decent Vcore then there is a limit in the memory sticks and the wall for it is most likely around 220 @ 1T. If it does run 1T @ 225, I would increase the FSB to 290 and test again which should bring the memory up to 229-230Mhz

If that 9.5x 285 test shows a memory speed significanlty lower than 225-226, then Asus has messed with the table on the 1/2 multiplier. That could be a benefit if the 3-4-4-11 1T wall is @ 220.

If the 1T wall is 220 then most likely the chips on the modules are mixed and that may be why they got the DDR400 rating. That would be in line with the max q on the module being 270-280 because 50MHz under places in in that range and with the voltage drop I am seeing and running a lower Vcore, it would be logical to assume 220-230 would be the wall @ 1T with high FSB.

As for the method you are using, not crtique from me.... getting to know a system and its electronic personality requires using methods that you feel comfortable in.

I would typically run the loose timing @ 1T and work the numbers, verifying the CPU/DRAM ratio and using the math I posted to confirm the numbers are in line.
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Re: RAM Timings

Postby MWISimmer » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:05 pm

This thread is fascinating, interesting and educational... I take my hat off to you guys...

8-)
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