help on raid?

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help on raid?

Postby yf » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:29 pm

Hi!

I just finish installing the all the hardware.
Now comes the step to install Windows,

Since I have 4 hard drives and I want to use it as RAID 0, which means
The computer will use all 4 drives as one to increase performens.

I start the CD instalation, press F6 and insert the floppy with the raid drivers on it, and I select the raid option,
From there the set up went normal till I got the screen to format 4 drives
Last edited by yf on Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby congo » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:38 pm

I can help some, but I've never done RAID-0 with 4 drives, so maybe someone who has can comment on that.

Theoretically, the 4 drives combine speeds and give you a drive that is 4 times faster, but this does not happen in reality, and I've heard that adding more than 2 drives to the raid-0 array causes a case of diminishing returns compared to a 2 disk raid-0 array.

Add to this the fact that RAID-0 is non-redundant and a 4 drive raid-0 array will totally fail if just one drive dies and all data is lost. The chances of a HDD failure in a 4 disk RAID-0 array without redundancy is probably too high to consider.

A RAID-0 built from 2 x WD raptors would make a lot more sense, giving you the real advantage of more speed without the added risk of drive failure from having 4 drives prone to failure.

A second volitile raid-0 array could be configured as a backup HDD using your other two drives, offering some data security, although it's the nature of RAID-0 to be unreliable in the long term.

A better option may be to use a mirrored array of two striped arrays, This is RAID-0+1. Look down this page to find it and other raid configurations like Raid-1+0 or RAID-10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID#RAID_0


SCSI raid controllers also offer a lot better speed than the onboard solutions provided with motherboards these days. Also, Windows XP has options to set up raid-0 arrays in software without using any onboard controllers, but this is not as fast as SCSI contollers either.

Partitioning a performance RAID-0 array is a no-no as it will increase drive seek times and wipe out speed advantages of the array.

Placing an operating system on the RAID-0 array brings new challenges because Windows will only install to 4kb formatted cluster size and not the larger clusters required by a performance raid-0 array. You need to build a customised winXP install disk with a cluster size fix.




The first thing you need to do is set up a raid array using the raid bios, after enabling your raid parameters from your main bios. The two bios's are seperate and accessed differently. READ YOUR MANUAL

After your raid-0 array is set up in bios correctly, you need to install the raid drivers from floppy drive during windows installation by hitting F6 at the prompt when it asks, if those drivers install correctly, you'll find windows will install properly, if you don't get that driver install done correctly, windows will not recognise the array and it will fail installation.

Ok, I will copy a post I recently answered in another forum here:


_________________________________

"The best performance, and indeed any worthwhile performance increase may depend on how you set it up, and your money is probably not well spent if you don't configure it properly.

I'll explain how mine is set up and invite comment if anyone knows better because this is what I did based on the best info I had at the time.

Drives available: 2 x 200gb WD SATA2 plus 1 x 250gb WD SATA2

I partitioned the 250gb drive to 50gb on C: and installed XP.

I set the 2 x 200gb drives in RAID-0 with a 128k stripe size and 64kb formatted cluster size. The RAID-0 array DOES NOT GET PARTITIONED or performance will be adversely affected.

I built a slipstreamed windows XP SP2 install disk using nlite, and before I compiled the .iso, I added and overwrote these files from a pre-SP2 disk into the slipstreamed SP2 I386 folder, (stressing that pre SP2 files must be used to overwrite the SP2 files) :

AUTOCHK.EXE
AUTOCONV.EX_
AUTOFMT.EXE
DMADMIN.EX_
SETUPDD.SY_
SPCMDCON.SYS
UNTFS.DL_

This allows a SP2 Op Sys to run on clusters which are over 4kb, as the new MS default cluster size for all Op Sys's SP2 and above is 4kb and windows will refuse to install otherwise unless this fix is performed. Let's call it the "Cluster Fix". There may be another way to do this, but it's the only way I know how to do this at present.

Once these files are written into the SP2 slipstreamed disk folder, the folder can be compiled into an .iso ready for burning to CD, the CD is burnt and Windows is installed onto the unpartitioned RAID-0 array.

Explanations:

The highest performance needs XP (and everything else) running from the RAID-0 array.

128kb stripe size is the largest I could select on my nVidia raid bios. I believe expensive SCSI controllers can select a larger stripe size, so onboard RAID controllers seem to be limited in this regard.

Large cluster size is important to reduce seek times and move/read/write data faster. I chose 64kb because it was explained to me that the clusters on a 2 disk RAID-0 array should be 1/4 the size of the average filesize contained on the array.
Now this is a grey area for me, in that my average filesize is actually greater than 4 x 64kb, however, my large files are very large (iso's etc) which do not get manipulated often, therefore I estimate that the files I mostly use (games, apps, OS, etc) are approx. slightly less than the 4 x 64kb cluster size I chose.

This proved true, as the size of my array's data = 100gb's and the size on the array = 112gb's. So we see a waste factor of around 10%, and this is due to files not quite fitting neatly into multiples of 64kb.

32kb clusters will waste less space but won't perform as quickly, larger clusters will waste a lot more space, (on my array, due to my average filesize).

It was explained to me that random seek is the slowest operation on a disk, and therefore anything that can be done to improve random seek (as in when you are gaming) will pay off in speed improvements. I was also told that random seek cannot be accurately asessed with just any simple benchmarking tool and that determining random seek performance accurately involves a good understanding of the windows performance counters and even more understanding of how to interpret those results. I'm not trained in those areas, so I just have to take it as Gospel for now.

The array should not be filled much beyond 50% capacity or it will slow.

You use folders on a RAID-0 array, not partitions.

Suffice to say, my RAID-0 array is fast, or at least gives the illusion of being so, and THAT is how I did it.

My 250gb drive has a fully functional winXP op sys on the first 50gb partition and the second partition holds a copy of my RAID array less the RAID's windows install. I do not keep this drive active and only plug it in during backup operations. The backup drive in a configuration such as mine needs to comfortably hold the data or backup operations could be slow.

It also a "rule of thumb" that Hdd's get approx 10% faster every time the drive size is doubled, so based on that, 320gb drives are indeed the best value choice at the moment for a performance raid-0 array.

Hdd's with 16mb of cache will actually benefit from the increased cache in a raid-0 array (32mb combined cache) according to some sources, while having little effect in a non-Raid configuration."
___________________________________



Once you decide on a suitable RAID type and configuration, I might be able to help you build a windows install disk to maximise performance through large formatted clusters.

I'm not 100% sure of all my RAID-0 knowledge either so if anyone has some useful info to add, please do.

I hope that sheds some light.
Last edited by congo on Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby NicksFXHouse » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:03 pm

4 RAPTORs in RAID 0 will be a hell of a fast array.. and you do not need to go to any extremes to make it run.

There is an ultra high performance method of setting up a RAID array however it should only be used by those who wish to squeeze every last cycle of I/O performance out of a system and the typical user would not need to go the extremes. An enthusiast who is learning or wants to play would set a RAID array up by installing it on a higher Windows cluster size tuned for their specific use and also set up the strip or block size the same way. It requires one to completely install all of their software, make the test measurements, then destroy everything and start over, setting up the array and Windows for conform to the tuned install.

Unfortunately with SP2 such an install requires a hacked WindowsXP disk which includes a slipstreamed XP SP2 and the NTFS disk files from WindowsXP SP1.

Not something I recommend a typical user attempt or do.


The easiest way to install and use RAID is just use the motherboard or card boot RAID controller to set up the array. You will be asked by the BIOS what type of RAID, which drives to use and finally the strip or block size. Typically 64K block is best unless you have gone through a series of tests after a full RAID install, use the system for video editing over games or the games you use have very large file chunks. Not knowing any of that, 64K is the best block or strip size to choose.

Once that operation is complete you will have a RAID-0 array which includes the drives you selected. At that point it is time to install Windows which usually requires you have a RAID driver floppy disk for the motherboard RAID controller or card being used. When you boot the WindowsXP CD for install, at the bottom of the screen it will post "Hit F-6 to install a third party RAID or SCSI controller" You must hit F-6 before that screen moves on. At the right time WindowsXP setup will ask you for the floppy disk that has the RAID drivers on it and instruct you to place the floppy in the drive and hit "S".

NOTE: You must create this floppy disk using the right RAID drivers from the motherboard or card manufacture. If the disk is not made correctly, Windows will not find the array partition.

At that point the system will read the floppy disk and then ask you to select the correct driver for your system. There are some RAID drivers designed for x64 and x32, some come for multiple controllers, etc... you must know which one to select if there is more than one option presented.

Once selected Windows will load the driver and ask if there is another driver to install... if not, select enter to continue with setup but leave the floppy in the drive because Windows will access it again during setup.

Follow the instructions from there. You will need to select the RAID array for Windows to install to. it will appear as a single large partition in the Windows setup routine... have Windows format it using the NTFS quick method, which is fine. Once Windows assess the floppy disk during the install it can be removed before the system reboots.

After that it
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:15 pm

Thanks so much! you made my day! I'm going to try it..
and BTW I need a hell system for fsx...
thanks again...
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Re: help on raid?

Postby NicksFXHouse » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:37 pm

Thanks so much! you made my day! I'm going to try it..
and BTW I need a hell system for fsx...
thanks again...



NEVER PARTITION A BOOT PARTITION AND EXPECIALLY A RAID-0 ARRAY

Whatever size it is... use folders and forget about the partitions. With a SATA or IDE install a partition forces a loss of performance and a patition on a RAID-0 array not only slows performance, your risking complete data corruption as well

On a RAID array with 4 drives, you are not creating 2 partitions, you are creating 8 which looks like 2 to the system. Dont do it.
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:40 pm

Okay,
You know what?
Let me explain what I want and you will tell me what I need to do.

I want to build a PC that will work blazing fast, and the most I need the performance for FSX. Yes, FSX is my priority to load and perform as fast as possible, so therefore when I heard about the raptor as a fast drive, and raid 0 as increase performens, I got my self 4 raptors, and dreamed about how fast windows will boot
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Re: help on raid?

Postby congo » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:47 pm

As long as you have everything backed up on a seperate HDD, you can safely put the 4 raptors in raid-0, go for it, but don't partition the RAID-0 array, it will defeat the purpose if you do.

Use a 128kb stripe size on the RAID-0 array.

Use 32kb or 64kb clusters as a format option, I use 64kb.

If you use anything other than 4kb clusters you will need to build a custom modified windows install disk.

It's good to do this anyway as
Last edited by congo on Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:27 pm

Use 32kb or 64kb clusters as a format option, I use 64kb.

If you use anything other than 4kb clusters you will need to build a custom modified windows install disk.


First, Thanks for you support!

now, I
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Re: help on raid?

Postby NicksFXHouse » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:09 am

I just got in and it
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:01 am

Thanks! god bless you for your time! I o U ome...

I can look at my older pc all the file sizes and do the math here, no? also FSX is the only game i'm playing- enjoying, so will 128 should be good.
I will keep you posted,
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Re: help on raid?

Postby Mees » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:47 am

OMG.... That rig left me speechless for a moment......... :o :o :o
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:01 pm

the hard drive is properly defragged using professional software after everything is installed...


what do you recomend, is speed disc from symentec good?
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Re: help on raid?

Postby yf » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:08 pm

Use 32kb or 64kb clusters as a format option, I use 64kb.

I overrite the sp2 with sp1 files....now where in windows instalation can i set the format to use 64k???

the WD dos tool, give me 1,2,4,512, there is no 64.

please help me i'm going "nuts"

when i try to use a thidparty utility, windows got stuck in middle the install saying it is missing a file.
Last edited by yf on Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:16 am

I overrite the sp2 with sp1 files....now where in windows instalation can i set the format to use 64k???

the WD dos tool, give me 1,2,4,512, there is no 64.

please help me i'm going "nuts"

when i try to use a thidparty utility, windows got stuck in middle the install saying it is missing a file.


you know what.. your going way overboard

you have a 4xRAID-0 Raptor array

let the hack go and just install Windows on the 4K cluster it formats to. WD may have change their tool. At one time it gave the option all the way up to 64K cluster in the DOS utility.

With the new Raptors and Microsoft putting an end to using greater than 4k clusters in SP2, WD probably changed their tool as well.

If that is the case the only way you can size the clusters would be by doing a DOS command line format using an NTFS DOS bootdisk that has the format utility included which may be difficult to find and unfortunately I do not have time right now to go looking for it. I do not remeber if the Windows recovery console that has the NTFS format tool available will load without a Windows install but you can try it.

Before attempting you will have to set up the drive using the WD tools and format in NTFS @ 4k clusters so Windows will find the disk. The start the Windows XP set withthe RAID drivers ready. When setup reaches the first screen, type R to enter the recovery console and the DOS tools. It may ask for an admin password, just hit enter because there is no Windows install. Once at the C prompt....


format volume [/fs:filesystem] [/q] [/a:unitsize]

at the prompt type the following command line and hit enter

Format C/fs:NTFS/q/a:32

I cant remember if it is Format C
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help on raid?

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:54 am


what do you recomend, is speed disc from symentec good?



Absolutely not

If you put anything in your system made by symantic, you may as well be running a Tbird processor on an MMX video card

Use O&O Defrag Pro and Registry Mechanic Pro, nothing else.


Ignore the FS9.cfg data and about 1/4 of the way through the 3rd post on this page you will find the Windows install routine for drivers and for software... follow it carefully

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb/ ... 0;start=15


When you get to the end of the third post, go here:

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb/ ... 653;start=

Scroll down to the 6th and 7th post and follow those directions carefully


from there you are ready to boot up FSX for the first time

good luck
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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