New build: narrowing it down

[beaky]

I'm still juggling ideas around for my next machine, and I'm curious to see what everybody thinks.
The new rig will be for FS9 (and maybe later FSX) and audio/video editing. That's it. I'll use the old machine for Internet, etc.
I have my own ideas about brands and models of components- what I'm looking for is advice on the basic configuration.

Probably going to go Intel dual-core (I'm convinced I have to get up near 3GHz),  but I'm not sure about the graphics card and RAM...

Which makes more sense: 2GB of RAM and a 256 card (more to my liking budget-wise, especially if I spring for the Conroe chip), or 1GB and a 512 card?
 Would all that RAM be wasted with a 256 card (I'll be running Premiere as well as FS)?
Would the 512 card be wasted with less RAM?
I'm looking for a dramatic improvement in my simming experience, but I'm trying to keep the total cost below $2000 if I can help it, so I need to compromise somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I'm not looking for blazing-hot performance with Premiere, but it'd be nice to be able to work with large files without it hanging constantly (which is my current problem, mostly due to my tired old 1.8 GHz CPU and less than 1GB RAM).
Another thought: I'm thinking a smaller-size but faster HD (like a 10K rpm 75GB drive) for FS9 only, along with a 7200 rpm 250 or 300GB HD for everything else would be best... I'm also considering a massive external drive, for backups and big files... I'd also like to network the two machins for file transfers (the "gaming' rig will only be open to the world when flying MP).
Any suggestions?

[cheesegrater]

Video card memory doesn't mean speed. For example a 512MB X1600 isn't any faster than a 128MB 6600GT.

Also, the amount of megahertz a processor has is not the only indicatator of speed. For example a 1.86 GHZ Intel Core 2 Duo will outperform a 3.0 GHZ Intel Pentium D.

You have to look more in depth specifications. However, most importantly look at benchmarks.

For less than $2000 you can get blazing-hot-performance.

For processor you definately want an Intel Core 2 Duo (Conroe). For video card don't get anything slower than a 7900GT or X1900. Don't know if you want ATI or nVIDIA.

For FSX and Vista I would get 2GB DDR2 800 overclocking RAM.

I would get an SLI or Crossfire mobo with good overclocking options.

Also, get a quality PSU to power all that.

[GeForce]

Good advice cheese.

Yep the Core 2 (Conroe/Allendale) route is definitely the best option at the moment. The E6300 Allendale and the E6600 Conroe seem to be the best bets.

And if you want to overclock, the mobo needs to be able to hit as high a FSB as possible. The E6600 has a max. multiplier of 9, and at the moment the boards seem to be topping out on FSB before the chip reaches its limit. The Gigabyte DS3 or DS4 are both good choices.

Vista is going to need 2Gb of RAM, that should be the minimum you are looking to put in your new PC. The jump to 4Gb is not yet worth the money.

As far as graphics cards go, cheese's advice is sound

Jon

[beaky]

Sounds about right...

Obviously I need to learn more about processors, but I'm not surprised to hear that operating freq is not the only indicator of speed...at least in the case of a dual-core chip (I assume that, basically, a 1.86 dual core will perform like two chips running at 1.86).
I thought maybe I was wrong about video cache size; thanks for clarifying that. I guess graphics speed depends more on RAM and CPU; that makes sense.
As far as the RAM goes, I think I can find a compatible mobo with 4 slots, so I can go with a 1GB pair of sticks for now then get another pair if and when I go the Vista/FSX route. Or maybe it'd be worth the $$ to just get a 2GB pair off the bat... I guess I have to think of this in terms of "spend the money now, or later".
But I need to leave plenty of my budget for a sweet LCD monitor (I'm putting the projector idea on the shelf for now, until I can wangle a good deal on a nice one through my job... the more I think about building a projector using an overhead projector and a hacked TFT display, the less I wantr to do it). I'm considering a good 20" widescreen, and I'm NOT getting the cheapest one I can find... that's something I know more about; a cheap LCD will break your heart...

I'm going to  over-spec the PSU; no worries there. I plan to buy that separate from the case.
 I don't think I'll need to overclock much; I just want to be able to fly fairly low over NYC or some nice add-on autogen without seeing fps below 25... I don't need 60 fps!  ;D

But what do you guys think about the 10K rpm HDDs? Will it make a difference with boot and load times with FS (assuming it's not filled up too much and everything is in order)? One of my biggest peeves with FS9 as I have it on this machine is that it takes about 90 seconds on average for the program to start up, and the load times for aircraft or location changes is annoying as well. It's also prone to hanging occasionally. That could be just due to poor HDD housekeeping (I have way too much junk in that FS9 folder)...but would a faster drive also help?

I've also been looking at those AeroMax cases with the huge fans... could be a dumb gimmick, or there may be a definite advantage to moving more air per minute at lower rpms... they get good reviews, seem to meet my other requirements, and they're under $100.

[congo]

You need to choose a good mainboard first, it's got to be a socket LGA775 and core 2 duo compatible for a start, then you can choose the features you want.

Don't discount overclocking, seriously, the new gear is built for it and it will provide a free future upgrade when you need it. The mainboard choice will determine how successfully you can achieve this.

I've been studying the mainboard scene for Conroe and it's not pretty, there are a lot of traps, so beware and get good advice if you need help.

It is possible to buy el cheapo components and save some money as long as you get an Intel E6600 CPU, a 7900GT video card or above, and 2gb of ram. However, I ALWAYS recommend getting the best core components possible, to the detriment of superfluos components if budget is a consideration.

Filling 4 slots with ram is not a good idea, better to buy the ram initially.

Knowing what I know Rottydaddy, I'd take great care in selecting a mainboard, then I would select an E6600 cpu, get some good ram (C4-4-4-12 PC6400 800mhz), and choose a cheapish 7900GT for now as you may be looking at a video card upgrade in a year or so as the new tech arrives.

Graphics speed does NOT depend on RAM and CPU, you arrived incorrectly at that conclusion. Graphics speed is dependent on the graphics card, everything else is secondary. What you don't seem to understand is that the AMOUNT of ram on a video card has less to do with video performance than AMERICANS are led to believe.

I'm serious, it's a cultural thing. You yanks think that ram amount in a video card is the determining factor in graphics performance when it's not.

The subject of video cards is so complex, we only wish we could just say "This card has 512mb of ram and is therefore good." There is a LOT more to it in reality, and the belief that ram amount is important will only serve to let you make bad choices in graphics cards.

As an example, you can buy old tech video cards with 512mb of ram fitted that are 10 times worse than newly designed 256mb cards, and you won't be able to play FSX on them at all.

A fast and expensive hard disk is not going to make any miracle improvements, you'll get slightly faster load times and a general improvement during disk I/O operations, and that's about it. Fast drives and RAID0 arrays are nice to have, but consider them a luxury item and get the rest of the system sorted first, as it's more important.

There is nothing wrong with a SATA2 7200 rpm hard drive. FS9 takes a long time to load, it's a fact of life. It also depends on your installation, the background process you run, the cpu power, the available ram and other factors. HDD speed isn't that important in FS9, though it can help a little, so don''t sweat over fast drives just yet, your sim is going to seem so much faster on a new system anyway, and crediting it to a faster hard disk would be a mistake.

256mb video card and 2gb system ram or a 512mb video card and 1gb system ram................. well, I sort of already explained above, but really, these things can't be directly compared, it's not black and white like that.

You want the best/most ram for your money and the best video card for your money. Video RAM means NOTHING, a good video card will have adequate ram for it to do it's job properly.

Over speccing the PSU and wasting money on cases and cooling solutions is up to you, it's your money, but until you get the rest of the rig right, those fancy bits don't mean a thing.

A word about PSU's, Cases and cooling solutions.........

99% or more of PC's in the world are using crappy el cheapo PSU's and they are working fine. Get something that will do the job, pandering to the enthusiast market in PSU choice just drives prices up for everyone for no reason other than to fill the coffers of the retailers. As a rule of thumb, get something with some spare watts, but make sure the 12v rails have enough juice.

Cases..... Rotty, I've seen pictures of your place. I'm sure you'll think of something, just make sure the dogs/rats can't eat it and no one gets electrocuted

[beaky]

Always a pleasure to hear from you, Congo...  ;)

I hear you regarding the "traps", etc... one thing I learned from my last (first) build is that it is far, far better to spend a little more and "over-spec" the core components (mobo/CPU/PSU/RAM)... why? as you might suspect, when I built that first rig, spec'd to MS's published minimums for FS9 (hah!!) within two weeks I had to upgrade the gfx card. then I realized I needed more RAM (no really, I did... not just being patriotic )
Then, of course, I discovered that behind it all, the CPU was just not capable of allowing allof this stuff to work optimally, so I had to swap that out, too. Thank goodness the mobo would support the new one...although as you may recall that was not easy to set up...

That being the case, I think I will begin by choosing the CPU based not so much on operating freq as on real compatibility with a mobo that's best for me (I agree there's a lot of controversy out there about what to use with these new dual-core chips; it's effin' crazy).
then I will bite the bullet and take the 2GB of system RAM, mostly  so I'll feel like a big man , but also because I will be better prepared for the inevitable  upgrade, and for the video-editing side of things (am I a fool for wanting to build a machine that will run both FS9 and Premiere  -and possibly ProTools or equivalent, later- at their best or near-best?).

As far as the GPU goes, I've seen some 7000-series eVGAs that look good but aren't near the top of the scale price-wise; even I in my ignorance know that sometime next year, there will be a lot of $1000 cards out there that will be worth diddly with the advent of DX10 and Vista... I may very well get into all that long after the trend is underway, but at least I'll be prepared, and won't be looking at a rebuild instead of an upgrade.
So the challenge will be to thoroughly research the mobos, with an eye particularly on "forward-compatibility".
I think my options will be good, as I don't need onboard video or surround sound (since FSX, even, will be in stereo only as far as I know, what's the point? I'll be watching movies and playing games on the other machine, which has a surround card).

RE: PSUs, cases, etc...

The PSU that caught my eye is a good deal (on sale right now), and alledgedly very quiet considering its output:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Custratin ... 6817103457

I know it's slightly overkill, but I want this rig to be quieter and cooler than the last one, and after having barely enough power for two years, I want to have more than I need.  But not so badly  as to pay almost $400 for their 1000W (!!) PSU... that's ridiculous.
And it's a good deal, if I get it ASAP.


Thanks for the HDD advice- I still think I'm going to go with a smaller, FS9-dedicated drive with a second for OS, etc... I reckon, given your comments (and the fact that WD's been making superb 7200s for a long time now) that I don't need to go faster with that.

As for the case: I went cheap and simple on the last one, and every time i had to do anything with my rig, I regretted it. I got my money's worth, but it's just a royal pain to service anything because of the poor case design.
I want:
More cooling(particularly side cooling)
Quieter cooling
Filtering
More ports on the front
Doors instead of screwed-on panels
No damn screws except thumbscrews
Case material tough enough to not arrive dented.

Now, I could design and build my own case, but not this time around; I'm too busy, and I'm still thinking of building a simpit.

So this is the AeroCool (not AeroMax) I was thinking of: I may invest in something sturdier and mod it myself for more cooling, but this seems like a good all-rounder for me, without spending too much:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811196021

It's a little fancy-dancy, but I've earned the right to that after 2 years with the Dented Monolith, aka the Mouse House. I think I can easily get some filter  paper (my place is very dusty; even if I dusted every day it's a losing battle) in those huge fan openings without causing any trouble- don't care about the stupid lights; I might pull those out and incorporate them into the simpit.
Having manual control of the fans is a very interesting idea, also- although that could be a recipe for disaster... we'll see.

It may not meet my requirements hardware-wise... there's a review that mentions frustration with screws, and that's the kind of thing that drives me bananas.

I'm going to look a little more, but so far this is at the top of my list. If I go for it and  it disappoints, maybe I'll unload the Dented Monolith and put that system in the Aero Cool , then buy something more "government-issue" for the flightsim/editing rig.

anyways... thanks for your input, and wish me luck!

[ctjoyce]

For the Case and PSU this is what I suggest.

ThermalTake Tsunami
Hiper Type R

Those two are much better (in my oppinion) than what you picked. The Tsunami is a very high quality steel case, with all the toolless pieces that you would need. There is a steel door on the front  It also has removeable drive bays, so if your not useing the floppy bay, you can just yank it out to make room for something else. With two 120s to cool it, there is alot of air going in and out.

As for the Hiper, by far the best PSU I have found to date. Some people like to debate this fact, but after all the stress tests put on it, and all the awards its recieved, its just simply the best.

On the GPU issue, I would say look at the eVGA 7900GT cards. For $230ish they are amazing.

On the RAM. You will thank yourself for the 2GB. I suggest looking at OCZ DDR2-800 Platnum ed. Excellent sticks.

Cheers
Cameron

[beaky]

Thanks, ct... I like that case, except for the big door. I'm not even sure I like the two-piece doors on the AeroCool... seems silly, I guess, but I don't like dealing with doors on the front. I need to search again for something with no doors that's better than what I have now.

That PSU is obviously an excellent design... but how noisy is it? 590W is more than enough, but if it's noisy, I'll pass. I initially didn't mind the noise from my current rig (all fans are pretty loud), due to a pretty high ambient noise level in my room, but lately it's been annoying me.
And the modular cables are brilliant, but  I don't know if I need that...

[ctjoyce]

The PSU is so quiet that I can barely notice that its there at all.

On the side of the case, take a look at the Lian Li PC7 No door, and very stunning.

Cheers
Cameron

[beaky]

The PSU is so quiet that I can barely notice that its there at all.

On the side of the case, take a look at the Lian Li PC7 No door, and very stunning.

Cheers
Cameron

Yes, I was looking at that earlier today... Lian Li has a good reputation- they get major points for finish and construction, as well as innovation.
And I was happy to see something from them for less than $100...
I'll figure this out eventually; thanks for the advice.

[congo]

[quote]am I a fool for wanting to build a machine that will run both FS9 and Premiere

[cheesegrater]

I think Coolermaster makes good cases. They are well priced, great quality, and have tooless setup. You only need a screwdriver to mount the mobo, and power supply.

I have this case, for that price you can't beat it. It comes with a 120mm and a 80mm fan.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811119068

I wish it had sideways hard drive trays though, and it was a little confusing to setup, at least for me. You have to take off the front panel to put in CD-ROM and floppy drives. Also, because of the 80mm fan my hard drive only went in half-way so I had to mount it in the very bottom slot. On a multiple hard drive setup I would take out the 80mm fan or get a coolermaster that has sideways trays.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811119094
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811119104

For $100 that Hiper power supply is a great deal. 580W is not overkill. In case you want to add a second video card you won't have to buy a new PSU.

[ctjoyce]

Personally I hate the sideways HDD racks. They really dont offer any advantage, besides throwing away the ability to have a front fan. Also depending on the case, and SATA cables you use, its very difficult to mount the drives in the bay and get the panel back on. The onyl reason I could ever see wanting them would be if you had Raptor X drives, and a windowed case. Other than that, its useless.

Cheers
Cameron

[beaky]

I'm not gonna say what case I've chosen yet, because it's not as important as my next question :

I'm down with the 6600, and the 7900GT (perfect until I decide to go DX10), and I'm convinced an ASUS board will be best... but.
I was going to go with the P5B, it seems like a great deal, but when trying to figure out my hardware needs for networking, I realized that the simplest solution (crossover cable, which I can make myself for free) won't work with that, because the old PC also has only a single ethernet port. So...
I'm thinking rather than spend around $40 and go through who-knows what trouble setting up a network hub (which is dumb for only two machines anyway), or possibly worse yet trying to do this over the USB (which between my printer, dock, mouse, and several sim devices, will be loaded up pretty well), I should probably spend $60 more for the P5B Deluxe, which as far as I can tell, just has another ethernet port and is compatible with some other Intel chips. NewEgg has it on sale, and minus the cost of a decent hub, I'd only be paying $30-$40 more.
BUT- if any of you know of any reason why the deluxe would be a no-no for my sim rig with the aforementioned CPU and GPU (I've been hunting and can find no info), speak now or forever hold your peace .



If anyone's wondering, here's the lowdown on my intended configuration:

PC #1 will be this clunker I'm on right now; AMD Sempron-based, with a CRT, ccurrently supporting my X45, a USB printer, a USB camera dock, and now a USB card reader (dock is too slow, but I like to use it as a charger. Actually, I can disconnect the USB cable from that now can't I?).
That machine connects to the WAN via a Linksys router about 150 feet away (Cat 6), which allows 5 other machines to share a broadband connection.
I use only the stock firewall on the router and the stock XP firewall and Firefox, and have not had a virus or anything other than easily-zapped spyware in over two years, since this sytem went online. I don't download much at all.

What's going to happen when PC #2 is built is this:
PC#1 (after I reformat it- what a mess!) will remain as my main Internet and general-purpose terminal, also feeding component video to my TV for watching DVDs and video files, and listening to music. I have a large sleeping loft where the TV is; I'd like to move PC1 up there so I can hook up a proper 5.1 speaker system to it, and have easy access to the DVD drive for playing discs.
The CRT will stay where it is, and I'll I'll use a KVM switch and RF keyboard/mouse  so I can control PC#1 from either location, and also control PC #2 (which will soon be part of a simpit next to my workstation) using the CRT and RF keyboard/mouse. This way I can surf, edit or record A/V, and tinker with FS9 all from my workstation,  This CRT is more than adequate for editing video at my current level, and I could probably use the TV for some of that, if I want to lie on the sofa up there. Could be good for gaming, too- we'll see how well my TV handles component off a DVI-to-component converter cable (PC #1 GPU has two DVI ports, BTW; I'll set it for "clone" mode).


PC #2 will have a 20" LCD, the old keyboard (pretty much just for typing Saved Flight info at that point), and its USB will support 4-5 controllers that will be hacked and incorporated into the simpit (I know that's sort of cheesy, but this is "Rev. A" of the simpit, and so far my experiments have been quite successful).

Then, I want to network the 2 machines... I think a crossover cable would be best; the distance from simpit to loft "theater" is about 20 feet, should be OK (total distance to the cable modem will still be under 200 feet).
Ideally, I'd like Internet access on PC #2 for MP flying and downloads direct to the FS9 folder, and I also want to be able to control the printer over the network from the pit on PC #2 (thru the PC #1 USB), and of course do general file-sharing, i.e. rendering video on PC #2 then dumping the files onto PC #1 ( I may also get a big external HD on the PC #1 USB for storing A/V files, photos, backups, etc. prior to backing them up on discs).
I will have a 250GB drive on PC #2 for everything except the sim, but I want to keep it uncluttered as much as possible, so file-sharing is important... if I can do it easily thru the crossover and ultimately thru the crossover to an external drive connected to PC #1 . For the immediate future, I should be fine without an external, except for backup; I've got 200GB in PC #1 just for file storage, and I've been pretty good about burning archival data to discs and believe it or not haven't suffered a catastrophc crash yet.

Thinking again... if I move PC #1 up into the loft, I will need a USB hub or possibly an extender, or I'll have to put the printer, etc. on the sim PC... forgot about that. But whatever; I think I can get away with putting those on the new PC, much as I'd rather not.

That's not so complicated, eh?
I have considerable experience with networks, but not the consumer stuff- mostly proprietary A/V control stuff... so this scenario seems very do-able to me offhand, but I'd love to hear any comments from those who have networked more than one PC and a bunch of peripherals at home.

[ctjoyce]

Okay, from what I got from that, this is what I think you should do. Off the router connect a 8 port switch to it. Then run a line to the new PC. From the new PC run a line to the old PC. As for the file shareing I suggest turning the old PC into a FTP server, and just don't give out the IP, or let anyone have read write access. Also if you share the printer your good to print from any comp.

Thats the way I would do it.

Cheers
Cameron