Your ideal FS machine . . .

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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby kipman725 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:09 pm

First I disagree with NOT having FS9 and Windows on the same drive FS9 needs to access Windows files and vice versa, by having the two seperated you are not only losing performance in the read/write area but shortening the life of your hard drives and making your PC work twice as hard. all in which leads to loss in overall performance.


Also more than 1 gig of ram and you have wasted money, Windows can't deal with more than 1 gig, and FS9 doesn't know what to do with more than 750mb of RAM, so by having more than 1 gig is again hurting performance.




I will try and be diplomatic and presume that your posting this in good faith, but this is pure disinformation designed to trip up the unwarey.

To explore why every single part of this post is incorect we must first look at how hard disks work.  Basicly a hard disk is several magnetic platers that spin around at high speed  and a read/write head that moves over the platters.  Data is stored magneticly on the hard disks platers.  When lines of magnetic force are broken by the read/write head a voltage is induced.  If no voltage is induced then the area of the hard disk the head is moving over contains 0 and if the head moves over an area that induces a voltage then then it reads 1.  This may be irelevant but you don't seem to undestand how a hard disk works.

heres the wikipedia entry to check me up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk

having FS and windows on seperate HD's increases performance significantly (asuming that both HD's are of simlar speed and not fragmented).  Windows is one of the first things you install on a computer your going to install flight simulator on (asuming your not a wizz with wine) and so gets placed in the area of your hard drive which gets the fastest access.  When your windows pc is running system files are constantly read from this area.  Flight simulator will be stored in a different and slightly slower area of the hard disk if installed on the same hard drive.  A hard disk is fastest when performing sequential red/writes (areas on the disk right next to each other) because fs and windows are on different areas of the hard disks platters the hard drive is unable to perform sequential read writes as it constantly has to juggle between system files and flight simulator files.  This type of read right activity is called random access and is much slower than sequential access because the read/write head has to move a long distance over the platters instead of only a short distance.
If you have windows on one drive and fs on the other then the both drives can be performing read/writes that are sequential in nature instead of random access all over the platters.  I won't post any performance numbers as this is logical and easily verifiable by a quick google serch.

as for making your pc work twice as hard? well you could get a hard disk in the 1980's how fast were computers then?  a few mhz so it dosen't exactly take alot of cpu power to access a HD.

making your pc wear out faster? well as the head of your os hard disk isn't jigging around asmuch then I would say each individual drive is going to last longer than the single drive and if one fails theres a 50/50 chance it's going to be your non critical FS drive :)  (this doesen't take into account raid 0 which does siginificantly increase your chance of data loss, but also gives a big performance boost*, hence why I recomended a single drive for windows and a rad 0 array for games).

1gig of ram is a great way to spend money and 2gb is even better :D windows xp pro can use upto 4gb and xp64bit a teoreticaly 3TB of the stuff (if you had enough slots!).  Windows pro can alocate 2gb to each running proccess so fs on it's own could eat 2gb if it wanted to and other aplications and windows have 2gb to play with.  You may be getting confused with win98 that had poor performance with over 512mb of ram.  Hapily running 1gb and most of my freinds are running 2gb.  There was a huge performance boost over 512mb.

   
Can people stop spreading crap?

 *my freind dave informs me the differance "is like 2%" between on hd and a raid0 setup and not worth it.  As he has experiance with raid setups I would go with his opinion.  As the benchmark scores I based my opinion on were probobly exagerated.
Last edited by kipman725 on Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby Weather_Man » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:20 pm

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick with your posts in particular. I, myself am not an expert, but I guess I would consider myself having above average knowledge in Windows and Hardware with MCSA and A+ certifications.

Windows needs to be able to figure out how to use the ram and page file, with a over abundance of ram it gets confused as to what to do with it all the while trying to allocate page file. This will effect performance of your PC as a whole.


Windows XP does a great job of managing this. I think you're overstating the issue. Having more than enough RAM doesn't hamper the allocation of pagefile, Windows simply doesn't use it when it doesn't need it. There is no performance issue with this. Having not enough RAM will affect performance 100x more than having too much.

There is a  sweet spot, to be sure, and for FS9 and WinXP it's 1GB. 2GB can, in some instances, depending on hardware, harm performance slightly with added latency or create instability. WinXP itself can manage it flawlessly. Any issues I've seen with large amounts of RAM or too many sticks installed have been hardware related. However, he's talking of a building a new system to last the next 5 years. FS9 and WinXP will be obsolete in that timeframe.

As far HD life the constent searching back and forth making the drives work harder I would think can shorten the life.


It very well may. From 10 years to 9. Not an issue with most users.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby Politically Incorrect » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:35 pm

 
I will try and be diplomatic and presume that your posting this in good faith, but this is pure disinformation designed to trip up the unwarey.


Im not intending to disinform anyone, nor am I intending on tripping anyone,as I already stated that Im not a self proclaimed expert such as yourself :P



A hard disk is fastest when performing sequential red/writes (areas on the disk right next to each other) because fs and windows are on different areas of the hard disks platters the hard drive is unable to perform sequential read writes as it constantly has to juggle between system files and flight simulator files.  This type of read right activity is called random access and is much slower than sequential access because the read/write head has to move a long distance over the platters instead of only a short distance.
If you have windows on one drive and fs on the other then the both drives can be performing read/writes that are sequential in nature instead of random access all over the platters.


So Im to belive that doing this action beween two hard drives is going to be faster than the action taking place one one? Talking about read/write.

FS9 needs to access Windows files in order to work, it needs to read the config files which are stored in Windows not its own program files, so you say it is going to happen faster if it must read off two drives instead of one? and overall pc performance will be increased even though it is working twice as hard trying to gather information from two drives at once, process that information and then display it?

To badly misqoute Spock, this is just not logical.  ;D
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby legoalex2000 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:45 pm

here, think about it this way. people are going to RAID's because access times for all sorts of files needed for FS are cut in 1/2. this goes the same for windows & FS.

my laptop is dying. more can elaborate on this later.

:)Ramos
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby kipman725 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:27 am

 

Im not intending to disinform anyone, nor am I intending on tripping anyone,as I already stated that Im not a self proclaimed expert such as yourself :P




So Im to belive that doing this action beween two hard drives is going to be faster than the action taking place one one? Talking about read/write.

FS9 needs to access Windows files in order to work, it needs to read the config files which are stored in Windows not its own program files, so you say it is going to happen faster if it must read off two drives instead of one? and overall pc performance will be increased even though it is working twice as hard trying to gather information from two drives at once, process that information and then display it?

To badly misqoute Spock, this is just not logical.  ;D


hard drives are very slow at transfering data compared to the internal busses of your computer.  60mb/s for a fast drive compared to gigabits a second for hyper transport.  Factor this in and it should sound a little more logical ;)

btw I'm quiting this discusion it's depresing...                
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:59 pm

OHHHHH KAY

I'm going to ring into this thread in order to clear up some things...

First of all,
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby kipman725 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:39 pm

damm I'm so going to have to benchmark some fresh FS installs etc to test this out NickN.  Thanks for an explination as to why people think that FS works better on a single drive when other games clearly don't....

*stands corrected*
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Gpu clock: 475mhz core, 800mhz mem
CPU at: 12.5x175 = 2187.5
memory: 2.5, 3, 3, 8 Duel channel on
Os: windows xp pro, ubuntu 5.10 breazy badger
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:50 pm

[quote]damm I'm so going to have to benchmark some fresh FS installs etc to test this out NickN.
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:39 pm

[quote]damm I'm so going to have to benchmark some fresh FS installs etc to test this out NickN.
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby ctjoyce » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:21 pm

If you like photo real sceanary you will want a nice fast HD to load it from and 2gb of ram.  Best HD's would be 2 15,000RPM drives in RAID 0 on a good PCI-X raid conroller.


Are you serious? You know that the operating temps on those are 55C at only 75% load right? Every 15K RPM drive I have ever known of has gone down in flames, usually takeing RAM, motherboar, and Case with it. Rapters are the fastest you should go for now.

Cheers
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:05 pm


Are you serious? You know that the operating temps on those are 55C at only 75% load right? Every 15K RPM drive I have ever known of has gone down in flames, usually takeing RAM, motherboar, and Case with it. Rapters are the fastest you should go for now.

Cheers
Cameron


I agree.. the Raptor is the best choice in SATA

...however nothing beats a good quality 15K SCSI drive and controller.
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby ctjoyce » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:07 pm

Again the heat ;)

Cheers
Cameron

PS: But verry true
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Re: Your ideal FS machine . . .

Postby NicksFXHouse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:39 pm

Again the heat ;)

Cheers
Cameron

PS: But verry true


I run RAID-0 on 5 Cheetah 15K.4 SCSI drives in a dual xeon tower which is on 24/7

Granted, with that running it is warmer than a typical tower environment, but nothin's melted yet.

;D
Last edited by NicksFXHouse on Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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