P51D problem

[ozzy72]

Don't I know it Crumbso. They should have one in the National Gallery!

[Splash]

[ozzy72]

The program probably had an American director. I've seen a program on WWII fighters by a British team, and it barely mentioned the Jug, 'Stang, or Lightning because they were American.
Unfortunately TV land is full of silly people with silly prejudices......
So no bullet for you Splash. We have to accept that there are some right proper wallies who know nothing about aviation out there.
I still like the 51, she really has long legs, and once you reduce the fuel load she's a fantastic fighter. Lets face it if she wasn't any good they wouldn't have kept her! The same goes for the Spit, a revolutionary design that served and evolved from the beginning of the war into Korea!

Ozzy

[Splash]

 Whew!!!!   Dodged the bullet on that one!!!!  Yes, I know how prejudiced programming can be, depending on who is doing it.  That is why I want to watch the whole program again to see the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How the selection was made and what criteria used to do so.  I only saw about 30 mins of it and it was an interesting program nonetheless.  Ah, the things you see and hear on the box huh?  lol

Splash  ;D

[Crumbso]

I like the stang to but only if its got a merlin in it. without it it aint nothin.

[Woodlouse2002]

Discovery wings would go under if they announced a british aircraft as the worlds best.

[ozzy72]

And if they don't......... I'll drop a giant dollop of marmalade on them!!!!!
Nah its that whoever made/produced the program and their prejudices/biases again isn't it.
Heigh ho

[nickle]

The problem isn't primarily in the amount of fuel although the 51 did have a requirement to use the tank behind the pilot first.
The problem is in all 3US fighters and it is CG.  1 percent aircraft have a selectable CG adjustment.

The 3US fighters do fly much better with less fuel. Doubt it is weight of fuel. Most likely it is CG.

[Scott_McCloud]

[The_Danoman]

Sounds like a really cool idea. I'm in...
Dano...

[Professor Brensec]

This subject has come up, and in fact featured a number of times in the 'General Discussion' area.

On a History Channel Doco, no so long ago, in which P51-D (the D is the one we are referring to) pilots were interviewed, they all had the same comment regarding the handling of the plane, especially with the fuselage tank still full.
It apparently had such a detrimental effect on handling that the pilots (against SOP) purposely drained this tank before the drop tanks, so they wouldn't be 'hobbled with it' during a fight. (On the contarary, because of a shortage of aluminium, the poor Germans were ORDERED not to drop their drop tanks unless it was a life or death situation).

Of course, because the Sim doesn't allow you to drain just that one tank first, you have to set your fuel to quite low before (in SOP) the fuselage tank would be empty.

I can't use CFS3 as my PC is not powerful enough, but, is there an option like in CFS2 where you can select a tank and drain it first (provided you don't 'warp', which for some reason, makes the fuel selector go back to the default setting)?  

[Flamer]

Having got and read an official copy fo Pilots Notes for P-51D. The notes state that fuel from the fusilage tank MUST be used first as the P51 is very unstable in pitch and  NO air combat entered unless absolutely necessary. Ideally the fusilage tank should have no more than 20-25% fuel remaining so that there were no stability problems with the aircraft. Having used the fuel from the rear tank, fuel from the drop tanks was used next etc etc.

Where the Mustang was used in combat with a full tank or near full tank, some pilots found they had to push on the stick to keep in a turning fight with the opposition.

[Professor Brensec]

By the sound of your manual, Flamer, it seems that it was or, at least, became SOP to drain that tank first.

These blokes that were interviewed on the History Channel Doco seemed to be still (after 60 odd years), under the impression that they were going against SOP or recommendations when they did this.
(I know History Channel can sometimes be either wrong or get things arse up - but they can't make vet pilots say things that didn't happen.........lol )

I suppose it's possible that this procedure came into effect after the pilots over Europe complained one after the other. After all the P51 was the mainstay of lesser Air Forces until the '60's. So maybe it wasn't SOP during '44 - '45 but became so later.  ;)

Is there a date in the manual??  ;D

[WarbirdJoc]

I'm sure Ozzy's analysis is correct.  But I also think the Game is off somewhat on P51D performance.  In any case, you can change the performance by modifying the aircraft.cfg file with a text editor like Notepad.

Open Windows Explorer, click on the CFS3 game folder (wherever you installed it), click on the aircraft folder, click on p_51d.  Create a new folder and call it something like Archieve.  Right click on the aircraft.cfg and copy and paste it to the Archieve folder.  This is to preserve it in original condition.

Now go back and highlight aircraft.cfg.  Double click on it to open it.  You may have to tell windows to use Notepad or some other text editor.

Scroll down to the [flight_tuning] section and find the following lines:

elevator_effectiveness=1.000000
aileron_effectiveness=1.000000
rudder_effectiveness=1.000000

Change the numbers to something greater than 1.0.  I found that numbers between 1.1 and 1.2 work pretty well.

You will find a noticeable improvement in performance.

If you are still having stall problems, you can overcome them by modifying the following in the [piston_engine] section:

cylinder_displacement=137.250000
max_rated_rpm=3000.000000
max_rated_hp=1490.000000

Increase these numbers by 25 - 50 %.  This will give you more HorsePower to overcome stall.  It will also give you a tendency to overspeed so you may have to "work the throttle" to prevent overspeed.

There are many more parameters you can change to alter the plane's charistics and performance.  If you understand airplane design you can play with them but be careful or you'll make the plane totally unrealistic.

All of this is cheating of course but it may make the game more enjoyable for you!  

[Flamer]

With reference to the rear tank in P-51 B& D these were from Pilots Notes in 1943 and 1944 from the Royal Air Force Developement Unit, which tested aircraft before they came into service.

The reason why it was a dangerous aircraft with rear full tank was that it had a rear centre of gravity. It was not possible to trim the aircraft properly in flight until the fuel had been reduced substantially. ALL pilots flying these aircraft were made aware of this problem.

The bombres needed protection and it came with the P-51's P-47's and P-38's.

The P-51 was a Hot Ship that's why it was so named after a Wild American Horse. Once tamed, and handled right she was a winner inanyones hands.

Minimum approach speed 110. and Never use full throttle before the tail is up and you have got rudder authority to counter the swing.

Yes I have seen a P-51D swing badly on take off owing to the throttle being opened to quickly. Luckily take off was aborted quickly and no harm was done.