Did German planes suck this bad in real life?

[Bob_Ruff]

Grasshopper, you must bend with the wind or break.
The original MS poor flight examples don't do well for the real planes. They seem to have reduced the German planes a little more, maybe. MS reduced the ammo load on the 190 to boot. The  planes offered on this and other sights are a different ride. The 190s at Aviation History are great planes but must be flown within its strengths and against the Spits weaknesses (few as they are). A pilot must always be in the superior position or disengage. Trying to follow a Spit in a climb in a 190 is not a good move. Trying to out dive a 190 while flying a Spit is no better. Understand your strengths, know your enemy, respect his strengths, know when it is better to flee than fight. Nothing has the firepower of a 190 in a single engine fighter of WWII. If you can bring his guns to bear, the fight is short. I recently had an encounter (in Ruff-Missions) in which I had to attack allied LCTs which were CAPed by four SpitIXs. My wingman was shot down immediately. I sank two LCTs and shot down three of the Spits, out dove the last and outran him at 100 feet altitude. He had position and I knew it. I never tried to climb after the ones I got. I waited until I had position. These Spits were rated Ace. My level is hard 100%. Before, I was lucky to bail out before being overwhelmed and killed. because I was trying to match the Spits moves. A 190 can't do things a Spit can ( a Zeke, AM6 can). Most pilots (that survived) will tell you the planes they shot down never knew they were there. Erich Hartmann (352 C-Kills) believed it was foolish to dog fight (in spite of his abilities) because being unlucky was too much in the equation. Sooner or later bad luck was to come. One American ace said never enter a fight you don't have complete control over. If you are not sure you will win, don't do it. Nothing better exemplifies this than flying the 262 against allied fighters. Those that have done this and tried to dog fight will attest to being shot down in a hurry. Fly in fast try and line up a target, fire a quick burst and keep on truckin. Clear the battle come in for another pass and so on. Never try and dogfight. They can't catch you and if you line them up, they can't survive your four 30MMs. At speed you can out dive, out climb and out run. Slow down and you're like a Me110 ergo an easy target. After flying 1% planes, I can't do the original MS ones, they sxxk. That is why I did not offer my missions for stock planes. The missions had the prerequisite of near correct flying attributes.
Once you have mastered the strengths of the 190 and learn how to protect its weaknesses, you will understand why it is considered one of the greatest of all fighters.
BOB RUFF

[GooseGoose]

Yes.

Yes they did suck that bad.

In retrospect, it's amazing the Luftwaffe achieved as much as it did.  

Did you know that Willy Messerschmitt designed the Me 109 in only 11 days?  And that he was drunk while doing it?  And he only drew the schematics with his left hand?  (He was right-handed)  He was also with a prostitute at the time.   The prostitute had syphilis... and a heroin addiction (much like Reichmarshal Goering).

All that aside, the 109 did get off the ground, didn't it?  You want to know how?  The Occult.  The Occult got the Me 109 off the ground.  Have you ever seen the movie Return to Castle Wolfenstein?  Well, that was more or less based on actual events, and there was most certainly a deep relationship between the Luftwaffe's performance and the Nazi Occult.

The manpower mustered for every single German sortie that took place during the war was almost incomprehensible by today's standards.  For every single, individual plane's flight, the following had to take place:

• An assemblage at the airbase of four high priestesses, three Bavarian virgins (male or female) wearing black leather spats, two red deer from the Balmoral Scottish highlands (no other deer would suffice), and a Hauptmann from the Wehrmacht with a missing left eye.
• The group would sacrifice 142 russet potatoes by jamming each into the barrel of an 88mm AAA gun and firing.
• A sacred fire would be lit in an empty fuel drum that had been cut in half.  The only fuel allowed for the fire would be hazel nuts and pictures of Winston Churchill.
• Finally, all (including the deer) would join hands (or hooves) in a sacred circle around the fire and chant (in English):
  
  Mighty Knight of the heavens,
  Arise to the challenge.
  May your miscarriage of engineering
  Carry you across the Channel.
  May your bombs be our enemies' misfortune,
  And our utter delight.
  May you not run out of petrol (again)
  On the return trip.
  
  COMPLICATE!
  COORDINATE!
  GRAVITATE!
  EXTRICATE!
  ELIMINATE!
  DEPRIVATE!
  
  ELLLEEEVAAAATE!!!!

As the chant builds up into a furious crescendo, the plane rolls down the runway.  If it is timed perfectly, the chanters will reach their climax just as the aircraft lifts off the runway.  If it is not timed perfectly, the magic will fail and the plane will stall (not because not enough air is moving across the wings to provide sufficient lift, but because the magic has failed), and crash, its' unfortunate pilot entangled within the burning wreckage.

Keep in mind the bravery of the German airmen who flew despite these almost insurmountable odds, and the sheer number of learned people (steeped in the ways of both the Occult and of our Lord and Master The Horned One, God of the Hunt) it took to get their planes off the ground.

Its something to think about.

For a little while, anyway.

[chomp_rock]

605 is right good planes take good pilots. The 109 is a great plane as far as i'm concerned as well as the 190 but they are both no match for a good old spit or Hurricane

[Fw190Nut]

First lets tackle tha MS AI.

The AI planes use a simplified flight model compared to what you get when you fly a standalone aircraft. Fly the Fw190A8 R8 against an AI pilot in a B17 and he'll out turn you - Yeah, right!
.(thread on this at avhistory)

http://www.avhistory.org/scripts/MegaBB ... 5&posts=10

Fact is AI pilots can pull some stunts that you CAN'T do in the same plane however hard you try. They also fly into mountains though (try starting a QC intercept in BF110s over Barcelonette at 2500 feet and see what I mean - LOL).



Now lets talk about Fw190's.

The British planes had big wings and therefore low wing loading. High lift sections give low stall speeds and good turning performance. The Spitfire was special because it had a laminar flow (very thin) wing with elliptical plan so doesn't lose much speed in a turn (crap for mounting big guns in though).

The Fw190 (and to a lesser extent the bf109) had very small compact designs with small wings and therefore high wing loading. Turn performance was not great and if you get into a turn fight with a spitfire, you'll die. Vicious stall characteristics too. Advantages are high speed and massive acceleration in a dive (but don't try that against a P47). The 190 also has a higher roll rate than anything else (except a late mark clip wing Spit at low altitude) allowing very fast changes of direction and a wonderful 'split-ess'.

The FW190 is an energy fighter. The tactics involve keeping your speed up and exploiting the inertia of the aircraft to dogfight in the vertical and use 'boom and zoom' tactics to keep one step ahead.

You need separation. Make a long, high speed approach, line up your target and let him have it (preferably head on). Six guns on a 190 will unload a lot of lead in a short burst - make it count. If you miss DON'T try and turn for another attack. Nose down WEP and burn to acheive separation again. Then come back and have another go.

The least realistic thing in CFS3 is that you've got that darn taget cone and tags everywhere telling the enemy where you are. That helps the spit pilot because he can turn and follow the cone but definitely does not help with the tactics you need in the 190. Try it and you'll stall and snap a wing down.

Later, the fw190D sacrificed roll rate and some firepower for massive speed and higher altitude performance. The Ta152 took this further and the H model had a long wing with low loading, a speed of 472mph and a ceiling of 48,000 feet. Fortunately for Hawker Tempest pilots only about 15 were built.

Stalls are cause by low airspeed OR too high angle of attack. Recovering from both kinds is a skill you'll need in the 190.

Also, I'm darn sure most developers just don't try as hard to model the German planes well. Hell they can't even get the guns right on some of 'em. mS only put in HALF the goddam ammo and even the later builders of FW190's for CFS3 don't put 30mm cannons where they should be.

[Smoke2much]

Goosegoose clearly couldn't find his bottom with both hands and an atlas!  His description of the take off prcedure of a BF109 is full of flaws.  

He forgot the goats blood and the ritual burning of four sprigs of garlic.  He also failed to mention that it was only when the Luftwaffe added the swastica to the tail of their planes that they generated any lift at all!

Shame Goosegoose, SHAME!

Will

[Spartan_52]

I like the 109 in the game, especially with the extra cannons, just drop that bomb or drop tank PDQ.  This is ideal for the one pass sneak up and destroy them combat.

But as has been said don't try to out-turn a Spit, just power dive and not only does their wing hinder them, so does the fact that the early Spits weren't fuel injected so drag and gravity are on the side of the Luftwaffe.  (must be something to do with the garlic)

Anyhow that brings me to my lastest crib about realism - why when I take off in the 109 do I not get to see the ceremony - is a developer working on this - Terrain SDK anyone??  ;)

[j3cubdude]

Good planes take good pilots...

excacly

[chomp_rock]

The FW190 is inferior to the Spit IX I read an arcticle about it (ACTUAL FLIGHT TEST DATA) it could only out roll (Usless )

[Fw190Nut]

Yup, the first 190's gave the RAF a bit of a fright because they out performed the Spit Mk5 in all respects EXCEPT turn radius. Some Mk5's had clipped wings to increase thier roll rate to counteract this.

The Mk9 spit was a hastily re-engined mk5 to try and counteract the speed and climb of the 190. It worked.

Roll rate is important in dogfighting because it means you can change direction VERY quickly especially in the vertical. Note that changing direction is not the same as out turning something!

[The_Danoman]

Whitey(spelled right?) I have to agree with you, all of the aircraft have their own little 'ticks and when you have learned how to minipulate what ever you are flying to "match" those ticks, you get good at any of the aircraft, I too have my favorites, but, I've tried to learn all of the aircraft's different  nuances you can almost perform miracles in them... Keep in mind also please, that we just got our machine back online, and I've had alot of time to try and learn them all... I like them all... Dano