No element of surprise in air-air combat

[Whiskey_Zulu]

One of the first things I noticed about air-to-air combat in this game is that its impossible to sneak up on an enemy fighter in this game--it's like the AI has perfect knoweldge of where all other aircraft are.  Fighters carrying bombs don't react until you get close, but they still suddenly break when they can not possibly see you because you are below and behind them.

This is particularly unrealistic, because, based on all I've read about air-air combat in WWII, surprise/seeing the enemy first was the most important thing!  I recall reading somewhere that most fighters were shot down by planes they never knew about (didn't see).

I recently read the biography or Erich Hartmann, the highest scoring ace of WW II and all time (352 victories).  You know what his view on ariel combat was?  Avoid dogfighting at all costs!  He would just fly around, looking for opportunities to attack Red fighters that didn't see him (twice, near the end of the war, he would see patrols of U.S. and Red fighters warily eyeing each other.  He would sneak in, shoot a Red fighter or two, then watch as the Americans and Russians would start dogfighting each other).

I also read Chuck Yeager's biography (about 15 years ago), and seem to remember him saying that his most valuable asset as a fighter pilot was his ability to see German fighters before anyone else--seeing the enemy first was essential.

So it seems to me that the designers of this game have left out the most important part of WW II air combat--the element of surprise.

[Sock]

Yeah thats true, but sometimes it's fun to get into a dogfight with another plane.

[Woodlouse2002]

I've bounced aircraft in CFS3... Just go in fast.

Also in CFS2. I've sneaked right into enemy formations before blowing up the leader. At which point both wingmen break and collide which means an entire formation has been destroyed with about 20 rounds.

[Whiskey_Zulu]

Why would speed have anything to do with it?  If they can't see you, the speed you are moving at will make no differnece.  The only time you can bounce fighters is when they are carrying bombs, as far as I've noticed.  When they are in the fighter, not bomber role, they appear to have perfect knoweldge of the world around them.

[SyPrO_CaStEr]

what?  Whiskey_Zulu, have you tried going under and behind a fighter? that works for me, they dont see ya and speed does count, the faster you go and the slower there responce is

[Whiskey_Zulu]

[quote]what?

[Woodlouse2002]

It's because there ready for a fight just like you are. Try flying a mission of some type and try boucing them then.

Also speed has alot to do with it. The faster you go the less time they have to respond to your attack.

[SyPrO_CaStEr]

Also speed has alot to do with it. The faster you go the less time they have to respond to your attack.

hey i allready said that

[Whiskey_Zulu]

I was playing the game in a regular mission (not a quick mission), and it's impossible to sneak up on an enemy fighter in the middle of a dogfight.  I was fighting against a rookie pilot, who was busy shooting at a plane on my side, and I couldn't close to within 400 yards without the enemy pilot breaking.  This is highly unrealistic because:

(1.) I was directly behind him, and he would have great difficulty turning his head to see me.

(2.) He was busy shooting an aircraft on my side, so he would be very unlikely to take the time to do (1)

(3.) The enemy pilot was rookie, who historically lose focus of everything in a dogfight but what's right in front of them, especially if they are firing their guns at an enemy.

It's obvious that, except in the instance before firing between squadrons has begun, the AI pilots have omniscience.

The more I play this game, the more I think it sucks.  It's just not very realistic, especially considering the available technology.  I played air combat simulators ten years ago that were just as realistic.  It's sad considering how easy it would be to make it much better.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]I was playing the game in a regular mission (not a quick mission), and it's impossible to sneak up on an enemy fighter in the middle of a dogfight.

[1danny]

i LOVE this game it gives me a rush especially trying to bellyland,if ya want mostly dogfights go back to cfs2.
if i did not like this game so much i wouldn' t spend s mush time trying to make it run smoother.

by the way how do you pick out a rookie all from a vet?

[Whitey]

Whiskey_Zulu:  I think you should read some WW2 history.  Also try a few very accurate WW2 novels such as 'Bomber' by Den Leighton and 'Piece of Cake' by Derek Robinson.  These two example are of RAF squadrons, so they will give a good idea of what you should be doing.

Personally, I always power climb to about 16000 feet at the start of a mission, had fly the whole way and then dive on the Huns.  They break all right, but there's always one ends up breaking into lots of little pieces.

If you're flying towards them at an equal altitude, chaces are, you'll be spotted.  German formations let every pilot watch his own side while watching anohters back.  If you don't come in below them all guns blazing or dive vertically on them, they'll break and you've got a dogfight.  Maybe pilots never wanted to get into dogfights, but you can't jump a Hun that knows you're there.  Simple as that, I'm afraid.

Now as for all your topics here...if you hate the game so much, why do you post all this stuff?  I think you like it, but you also like moaning...

[Whiskey_Zulu]

1. All fighters have combat mirrors enabling the pilot to see behind him without having to crank their necks round 180 degrees.

Is this a joke?

2. He might have been shooting but the first rule of combat is "Keep your head on a swivel".

I recently read two books on WW2 combat, and one thing I noted is that rookie pilots tend not to follow these rules that well.  That's why they tended to get shot down a lot.

The game is realistic. If you want to surprise a fighter don't do it in a dogfight. There expecting to be shot at then.

While he is shooting at the plane in front of him?  I just read the biography of Erich Hartmann, the WW2 German ace with 352 kills, and the only times he ever got shot down were in the middle of a dogfight, because he was occupied with shooting the aircraft in front of him.

Your points might be more valid if occasionally in the middle of a dogfight you could sneak up on an AI plane.  The point is (based on what I've seen) you never can do it.

[Woodlouse2002]

If you read "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum then you will here how he got bounced by a 109 in his first dogfight. He had just shot down a He111 and was looking down, not concentrating when a 109 came from above and behind and he didn't know a thing intill he was hit.

And in my previous post I was not joking. :-/