Reflexions over Korea

[Pepelyayev]

I have again visited in this days some sites and read some forums about the Air War over Korea.The sensations and reactions are quite different but , something had deffinitively changed.
After the open of archives of Russia from 1990s, the new way and some open politics of China , a lot of informations and publications are now available in the west. New books, articles , infomations are now available year after year. To the 1990, the only informations available were from West origin, mainly USAF , and very few from the other side , from the "Bad guys of the film"
Of course , one way version are always quite limited and that had give from some 40 years a near only version of the Korean Air War.
Today we know , the things were quite different and some "Mythes or legendes" of the Korean Air War are definitively out of date and wrong. Propaganda in the both sides was very strong in this early times of the Cold War and that had gived us a lot of miss-informations, manipulations of medias and others.
Things were quitte easy at the west, because Soviet Union , or today Russia had no admitted his participations in this war. A free way was offer to the writters and authors of the west and the historic only version was builded in this way , that mean, one way , one version. Russian and Chinese had nothing to say in this 50 years, the first different words come by 1990 , the seconds from China in this last years.
Today we have two versions, and that arm sometimes the strong defenders of the builded "official "version of the last 50 years,

[Hagar]

Very interesting. We did a lot of research before producing the Fox Four CFS2 campaigns & I reckon my colleagues Mike Eustace, Collin Glendinning & Tom Sanford know as much about the Korean conflict of 1950 - 53 as anyone.

Censorship & propaganda is common on both sides in wartime, probably more so then than it is now when 24 hour live news coverage is available from both sides of a conflict. Many people still believe what they were told during WWII although some of it was complete nonsense. Many others who weren't there tend to believe the Hollywood version of events although some of this is pure fiction with no basis in fact. This again is nothing unusual.

Exaggerated claims by combat pilots is also common & true of both sides. Please remember that this was regarded by the West as a UN Police Action & not only the US was involved. Many other countries took part including Australia, Britain, Canada & South Africa. War was never declared by the United States or its allies. Technically a state of conflict still exists as a peace treaty was never signed. They say that the victor writes the history books but in this case there was no victor.

[Pepelyayev]

Yes, that was a under UN directives. But I think the most big mistake made in this war with the avail of the UN, was to cross the 38th paralell after the Inchon landings, the near defeat of the North Korean Army and continued to the north, and don't listen the multiple warnings of China.If Inchon was a great move of MacArthur, continued to the North to reunification of the land under the West rules was a very bad move under the circunstances of this time. That had boosted the entry of China in the war and the prolongation of this war to July 1953. Had the UN troops stooped at the 38th Parallel after Inchon, and signed at Armistice like in 1953 and was finally the same. North Korea was finnished as militar power by October 1950.Armistice in 1950 and not entry of war with China, and for us, the aviation fans, no MiGs!!!!. Yes, really a big mistake, I can very good undestand the commentary and the look of Mark Clark when he had signed the Armistice in 1953. All this efforts, lives, destructions, money,etc for near of nothing.              

[Hagar]

All this efforts, lives, destructions, money,etc for near of nothing.              

I think the same can be said of any conflict. Unfortunately nobody learns anything from history & the same old mistakes are repeated time after time.

[Pepelyayev]

Already over the Red Star theme , I have played the campaign this week-end and have enjoyed it. Only I have changed a par of things for my personnel taste and use , because I know quite well the MiG-15 and MiG-15bis.
-Separate cannons and switches for the NS-23 and N-37 like in the real thing.Revised fire rate.
-Revised ammo , 80 for each 23mm , and 40 for the 37mm also like the real one. The KWCFS2_MIG15AI_T assigned as MiG-15bis ,that mean NR-23 cannons with slight high fire rate and some more extra 900 lbs of power in the VK-1 engine(5004 lbs for the RD-45F amd 5952 for the VK-1)
-Revised "punch", one 37mm hit was enough to bring down a F-86. Now is OK.
-Fuel capacity revised, the capacity was 384 gals for the MiG-15 and 368 for the MiG-15bis.
-Zero weight revised in both models, wing area, horizontal Stabilizer

[zubi]

yes, many other countries took part including Australia, Britain, Canada & South Africa. War was never declared by the United States or its allies. Technically a state of conflict still exists as a peace treaty was never signed.

[james007]

Great post Guys. Over claims happen to all AirForces Pilots of every Airforce throughout history. This also happen in World war two often.

What really bother me is that Aviation Historian in general have taken official records of some Airforces including the USA as golden document of truth.

The truth is we all should be more critical and more vigilant and open minded when writting about claims made by any organization.

James007

[Pepelyayev]

"Over claims happen to all AirForces Pilots of every Airforce throughout history. This also happen in World war two often."

Exactly , Erich Hartmann of the JG-52 was credited with some incredible 352 kills; well, today with all informations of archives, wrecks explorations, pilot and unit logos, operative reports, etc, "only" some 90 kills of this amount can be considered sure maybe as shot down.
Hartmann had scored kills when not Russian planes were airborne, or had make claims for types of planes not used in this operative theater.
Certainly propaganda ond over claims was very heavy in the Luftwaffe; another example Rudel with this Ju 87 and more of 550 tanks destroyed. This Ju 87 were equipped with 37 mm cannon and is very know the T-34(the main target of the Rudel Ju 87) was all less an easy target and 37mm hits were like dropping snow balls with this tank. Already the Panthers and Tigers were developped because all other tanks of the PzDivs were near obsoletes, inferiors and easy targets of the Russians T-34s and KV-IIs.Yes, Rudel say, he attack the T-34s mainly from behind, at the engine...but 550 , and with a obsolete and super slow Ju 87... ummmm      

[IndioBlack]

Hey Pepelyayev, if you can change things for the better in flight modelling and the rest, then good luck to you.
I spent a lot of time trying to get the right information, trying to understand airfiles, trying to get people to join in and help. And in the end I just had to roll up my sleeves and do it myself because no-one else would do it. And if I hadn't done it, there would be no Korean war campaigns for CFS1 or CFS2, however innaccurate they might be.
"Creating a flavour of the times" was always my get-out clause
So if my airfiles are wrong, then you should know that I did warn everyone that I didn't know what I was doing, and if they knew better, then fix it.
So go ahead, buddy, fix it.

I think my panels were pretty awesome though.

[IndioBlack]

"-Separate cannons and switches for the NS-23 and N-37 like in the real thing."

I believe that I did that. I was very keen on the idea. So I don't know what needed changing. Maybe your keys are set up wrong.

[Pepelyayev]

Indioblack:

For the MiG-15

[GUNSTATIONS]
gunstation.0=0,9,1,0.109,690,2,0.01,700,5,40,1d1*58,0,-0.2,3.5,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,7.031
gunstation.1=1,4,2,0.150,690,2,0.06,700,6,40,1d1*216,0,0,0,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,26.475
gunstation.2=3,21,8,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=80,-0.27,-0.38,0.13,0,0,1,80
gun.1=80,-0.39,-0.27,0.52,0,0,1,80

[guns.1]
gun.0=40,0.29,-0.59,4.00,0,0,1,40

[guns.2]
gun.0=2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

For the MiG-15bis

[GUNSTATIONS]
gunstation.0=0,9,1,0.075,680,2,0.01,700,5,40,1d1*58,0,-0.2,3.5,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,7.031
gunstation.1=1,4,2,0.150,690,2,0.06,700,6,40,1d1*216,0,0,0,359,0,0,0,0,0,0,26.475
gunstation.2=3,21,8,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=80,-0.27,-0.38,0.13,0,0,1,80
gun.1=80,-0.39,-0.27,0.52,0,0,1,80

[guns.1]
gun.0=40,0.29,-0.59,4.00,0,0,1,40

[guns.2]
gun.0=2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

That

[IndioBlack]

It's so long ago since I worked on CFS2 that I can't figure out what you're trying to say with those gunstation figures. (And I was one of the first to work out what they meant, back with CFS1 !)
All I know is that we did a Red Star MiG, and I particularly asked the model maker, who also did the dp, to separate the triggers.
What caught my imagination was the authentic MiG pilot tactic, where you used the low calibre ammunition to get your range, and then finished off the enemy with the high calibre stuff. So I'm sure we did that.

Keep up the good work. I moved on.

[Tango_Romeo]

Deja Vu!

I can't believe I'm seeing Hagar and Indio discussing Korean campaigns!

Am I in the Twilight Zone?   Have I been transported back in time?

I'm lovin' it! [smiley=bigcool.gif]

[Tango_Romeo]

Pepe, thanks for the compliments on the Fox Four campaigns!

If what you have mentioned is all you could find fault with, we did a grand job.

BTW, there are separate triggers for the 37 and the 23s on the MiG.

[smiley=clapping.gif]

[Collin]

[quote]Deja Vu!

I can't believe I'm seeing Hagar and Indio discussing Korean campaigns!

Am I in the Twilight Zone?