Info on stick length required

[AvHistory]

Does anyone have the exact length of any WWII aircraft sticks or yokes from the floor pivot point to the pilots handgrip.

[Hagar]

It's possible I could find out a couple for you but it would involve measuring them personally. Just a matter of when some kind soul allows me access to the cockpit. I doubt that any two are exactly the same dimensions. I expect it depends on any number of things like pivot points, the height of the pilot's seat & of course the control linkages. I'm more interested in why you want to know.

[AvHistory]

Our version 4 flight models take into account how much force can be applied by the pilot in deflecting the control surfaces.  

This includes stick leverage, fabric ballooning & servo tab assistance

[Hagar]

Ah, I suspected as much. This all depends on any number of variables. Cable runs, size of pulleys & sprockets, length of bellcranks/levers, balance tabs, mass balances - etc. etc. I think you would need a lot more than the stick length even on a simple aircraft like the Tiger Moth..

[Padser]

~S~

Interesting question though!

I would imagine most sticks were pretty much the same length (give or take an inch or two). Most pilots (and human beings - not that the two are at all mutually exclusive...) are pretty much the same size and most single seater cockpits would have been pretty similar, too.

I guess seat height relative to the cockpit floor and pilot seating attitude (upright, reclined, etc.) may also be factors to consider,  but I doubt this would be significantly different either. The point is that the stick, whatever its length, would be designed to allow a normal pilot to exert normal forces upon it. If it was a shorter stick, the system for converting pilot input into control surface movement might be different to that used for a longer stick, but both would surely be designed to require input of the same kind of force (i.e., that of a 'normal' pilot).

The main factor affecting the pull-push forces a pilot can exert on a control column is surely speed of airflow over the control surfaces - the faster the airflow, the stiffer the controls - and how well the aircraft is trimmed. Even in civilian light aircraft, it is astonishing how stiff the stick can become if you are fighting to maintain straight and level flight against a poorly trimmed aircraft.

Just some thoughts on an interesting issue - best of luck with the project!

~S~

Pads

PS. In the next version of IL-2 to come out (Manchuria & 1946), some attempt is going to be made to try and account for the differences between using a long stick (such as in the real aircraft) and a short one (such as most desktop joysticks), and make for a more 'realistic' effect.

Not sure how they intend to do this and have as yet no info from a virtual (and real) pilot's point of view as to how well they have managed it as the release date is not until next month - but it may be worth while having a dig around in the forums at http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php?skin=S2 for more info.

I'm particularly interested in this as I've just built a long shaft joystick for use with IL-2 to make for a 'realer' experience (it works by the way - I can recommend it!) - I'm now wondering how it will work in this newer version... back to drawing board perhaps...  ::)

[AvHistory]

Padser,


Actually there is a considerable difference in cockpit design, the 109 being so tight & the stick being so short that the pilot was at a great disadvantage in trying to put a lot of force into the stick.

US cockpits on the other hand tended to be quite large allowing a pilot to get a lot more muscle into the control movement.

A very practical example is the USN developed Wildcat escape maneuver.

[Padser]

Good point about the 109 and roomier US cockpits (was obesity an issue in the States back then, too? ) I don't think that stick length was the only factor preventing a Zero pilot from rolling at speeds in excess of 235mph though...

Interesting stuff though, eh? Just thinking about this has really emphasised to me just how complex the task of encoding aircraft performance must be (and, of course, the bravery and cleverness of the people involved in the AvHistory project in attempting to improve it in CFS!).

A major issue continues to be the lack of proper physical feedback via the virtual pilot's joystick, though, doesn't it? The 'in-game' pilot may barely be able to move his stick at all, while little Jonny No-mates in front of his PC can still dial in as much input as he likes (whether it actually has an effect on his aircraft or not)

Has anyone encountered a force feedback system that provides proper realistic feedback of this kind yet, I wonder? Getting that to talk to the kind of data you are handling would be a interesting project indeed..

TTFN

Pads

[AvHistory]

The Zeros cloth ailerons also ballooned & lost effectiveness.  Later models had metal ones but the aircraft still encountered the same problem at a slightly higher speed.

Cockpit size was a result of design philosophy.  US planes were built for range & speed so a more comfortable cockpit was needed then the short range designs like the 109.

Our planes are developed to fly at the default settings & moving the slider have very little effect on them unlike the IL2 series.  FF Sticks are getting good results with our Version 4 software.