US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

[Hagar]

[quote]I think he did want to invade Britian.

[MadTIGERmaN]

From what Ive pieced together,

Hitler wanted England as an Ally,
When it was clear that England would not join him,  His "advisers" said "England is week, we can destroy the RAF in a short amount a time,  then invade them and they will have to join us."

and as we all know, the RAF's brilliant strategies, and piltos proved that wrong.

No one can really say if the LW bombed London on purpose or accident.  But we do know forsure that the Brits went after German cities after this.  And that made the Germans change their strategy as well.  And by doing so, it left the RAF fields/bases and planes free of bombs, and allowed them to hold on until the US joined them.


Now back on to the topic.....


Has anyone ever used the German Jets on here in a dog fight?  How do they handle/hold up?  Ive done free flights with them,  I think they fly like Bricks myself,    

[james007]

I"m sorry but I happen to to agree with Hadgar. What you just wrote is a official History recount wich usually runs short of the truth in many occations.

One must remember that Hitler wanted to invaded Russia in the Atumm of 1940. His General Staff convinced him that the Army was not ready for such a large campaign and that it was in late the year and winter was around the corner.

For once he listem to his General Staff. A invation was never serously planned. Their was a vague plan to invade England with a large paratrooper force followed by a naval force landing. The plan was to destroy the British frces in southern England encircle London and starve them to

[H]

It is quite probable that Hitler would have been happy had the UK allied with him at the start of the war. With the continuing 'destabilization' of his mind, however, it's questionable if or how long it would have lasted once issues to the east were settled (if ever -- and in his favor). Aside from the if they hadn't, the UK stood against him and a long-term adversary is not wanted. Sometime during Modern European History, there was a reference to Hitler's interest in the Bayeaux Tapestry (which depicted, with surrounding events, the Battle of Hastings): representing the last successful invasion of England. Planes alone were no promise of a lasting means; the mind set to make that happen was by outright subjugation.
Early on, Hitler certainly listened to his military leaders. With their placing blame on each other for eventual setbacks and losses, attemted assassination, etc., his trust diminished and his failing health also worsened his attitudes. He had a hole in his head long before the gun was in his hand.

Has anyone ever used the German Jets on here in a dog fight?  How do they handle/hold up?  Ive done free flights with them,  I think they fly like Bricks myself,    

Sorry, I can't say they're like bricks -- I've never found a brick big enough and, even if I could get it off the ground, I  wouldn't want to go along with it. .

[Hagar]

As this thread has wandered on to the BoB I would like to make a few comments before leaving it. There seem to be certain common misconceptions which I would like to correct.

You have to remember that the Nazis though they had destroy Englands Radar system.

The fact is that they did not fully appreciate the importance of those RADAR stations. These were more difficult targets than they might appear & obviously heavily defended. The Ju 87 was the only practical means of putting them out of action & this had been permanently withdrawn from front-line service as I mentioned earlier.

They over estimated the damage they had done to the RAF. They developed a bad habit of over claiming kills that persisted until the End of the war.

Both sides overclaimed kills. This is normal in air warfare but if anything the German figures were more accurate. Like the British in WWI, the Luftwaffe was at a distinct disadvantage. The action was over enemy territory & the escort fighters were operating at the limits of their range with a very short time over target. They had perhaps as little as 10 minutes before being forced to run for home. This involved crossing the English Channel.

[quote]Their was a vague plan to invade England with a large paratrooper force followed by a naval force landing. The plan was to destroy the British frces in southern England encircle London and starve them to

[H]

This is how I see it. Breathing space. The non-aggression pact with Stalin is a good example.
I could go on but this would take several pages so I'll leave it here.

No need really; it quite well supports my statements .

[james007]

Hadgar you have confirm what I have written. The diference is you are a more historically detail man and I"m more overall generalist.



The fact is that they did not fully appreciate the importance of those RADAR stations.

Yes is true. But also thuoght that they had done enough damage to it to have made it unusable.


Both sides overclaimed kills. This is normal in air warfare but if anything the German figures were more accurate.

Yes your right again. The British erroneus record where of propagada use and also they had no choice but to continue fighting regardless of what kind of erroneous book keeping system they had. The German in the other hand where totally depended on accurate records to able to manage the development of the Battle properly.

It was actually a very close-run thing. Britain was fortunate in having the recently developed Chain Home RADAR system & the modern fighters to take advantage of a coordinated early warning & fighter control system.

Yes it was close run. Both sides had heavy loses. But the Germans though at the time that they where wininng the numbers war. They had very poor intelligence throughout the war. They also overestimated their kills as well throughout the war. All Aiforces did this but for the Germans and Japanese it was a fatal flaw.

In fact Germany did not have the large numbers of paratroops & airborne forces they imagined.

Proves my comment that Operation Sea Lion was a very vague plan that was nerver really taken serously by the German High command.

This has been only a opinion

James007

[james007]

On the question on what kind of relationship with Germany had Brtian had given in to Nazis pressure is pure speculation.

All I can say that inspite of his brutal and erractic behavior. Hitler was a pretty loyal ally to Italy and Japan.

I still would not want to be a ally to a criminal despot like him.

Like all despots able to change relationships on a moments notice.

He was a very sick man treated with unconventional medicine by a quack Doctor that only made his health generally worst and his mental status more irrational as the war when on.

All I can tell you guys is that History as we know it would have been totally different had the British given in to Nazis pressure during the Battle of Britain.

This is only a opinion

James007

[MadTIGERmaN]

Wasnt half the reason for Germanys bad intellegence,  is that none of the German soldiers ever wanted to report claims of failure,  in fear of what would happen to them.  Failure was just not an option.

Either way Hitler and the whole Nazi party were a bunch of power hungry idiots who bit off more then they can chew.

[Hagar]

This has been only a opinion

James007

I think that goes for us all James. It certainly does in my case.

Hadgar you have confirm what I have written. The diference is you are a more historically detail man and I"m more overall generalist.

I agree with most of what you're saying but I have the feeling you're not from this part of the world. I'm only a keen amateur but I was born & still live in the South of England where much of this took place. My home is a few miles from Tangmere, the famous RAF station & its satellite Westhampnett, now Goodwood airfield & motor circuit. I was brought up on the history of the BoB, not from any books or documentaries but as told by people who actually lived through that period. This area was one of the likely landing places for a German invasion in 1940. Shoreham Harbour would have been an ideal port & there's an airport nearby.

When they were building the new hard runway at Shoreham Airport in the 1970s the contractors found a hidden underground gun emplacement in the centre of the field that still worked although the gun had been removed. They also discovered that the airfield was surrounded by a buried pipe containing explosive. A huge pipe bomb which would obviously have been set off if invasion was thought imminent. Nobody had realised it was there & the airport was immediately closed until it was made safe. They also found an unexploded German bomb which is now in the entrance of the Shoreham Archive office. Like many others I must have taxyed over those explosives almost every day back in the early 1960s.

[james007]

Hadgar I"m very impress with your knowlege and Objectvity. Its very hard this days to find people that are objective.

Beign object is difficult for all of us humans cluding my self.

I find you to be very engaging and intelligent. Only a highly intelligent people can be obective not allowing

[Hagar]

Its been a pleasure and a learning experience posting with you and the others.

This is not a point of view but a statement.

James007

LOL I like your style James. It's a pleasure for me too. I learn something new here almost every day.

Its a lot more Historically Romantic when it comes to the Battle of Britain if you think that RAF saved it from a  Invation.

But you think about it. Its as traumatic and heroic if think about it. That the RAF was able to resist the might of the Nazis Military and not allow it to its will on its people.  

If you really think about it the real heroes in this Battle where the British people.

Romantic is a good description. A lot of legends have grown up around the BoB over the years. Some of these aren't based on fact but propaganda which some people still believe. Others are promoted by feature films which are nothing more than fiction presented as fact. The problem is that so many people will now believe it's the truth. This is what makes unearthing the facts so difficult & these are often very different to what the great majority of ordinary people believe. Things were very different then & the British people really didn't have much choice. Some were even sympathetic to Hitler. This went right to the top & without Churchill & his hatred of Hitler & all he stood for things could have turned out very differently.

[james007]

Yes,Hadgar. Churchill was the simgle most important man in western history in since the last millinium.

Its no exagaration

[MadTIGERmaN]

I was just watching some Airshow footage i show this year.....

and after watching a Bearcat tear around the skies, then a Sabre....

Bearcats vs any pre 1950 aircraft,  Bearcat wins.

If youve ever scene one fly in person.....    :)  

[Hagar]

[quote]I was just watching some Airshow footage i show this year.....

and after watching a Bearcat tear around the skies, then a Sabre....

Bearcats vs any pre 1950 aircraft,