US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Katahu » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:13 am

The thread is too long for me to read, so bear with me if I'm repeating.

Had Hitler decided to divert resources from the V2 rockets and conentrated them into building more jets or prop fighters, he would have held the war long enough to last into 1946. Thus, allowing aircraft like the Me262 to make an even larger impact on the outcome of the war. But also, like you said, had he also decided to keep the Me262 as a fighter, the props like the mustangs would not have been able to do anything to stop them.

Another, had he decided to continue the Blitzkrieg against military bases and facilities rather than civilian populations, the British would have had a significant loss in production and defense capabilities.

And remember, former President Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted congress to "...declare war against the Japanese Empire". He didn't mention either Germany or Italy. So, when Hitler declared war on the US, he made himself a target. At that point, he now had to face both the Soviet Military and the US forces. HAD HE DECIDED TO NOT declare such a war, his resources and attention would have been more focused rather than divided. Thus, making it difficult for the Brits to defend themselves and Hitler would have had enough troops to halt the Soviet onslaught.

He would have then conquered Britain and begin concentrating on a larger naval force that can reach and attack the US eastern seaboard. And since the US wouldn't have defeated the Germans, they then couldn't be able to develope the two bombs. Thus continueing the the war.

If you believe my "What-If" scenerio is a tad flawed, then you can go ahead and correct me.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Hagar » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:11 am

If you believe my "What-If" scenerio is a tad flawed, then you can go ahead and correct me.

I can see several flaws.

Another, had he decided to continue the Blitzkrieg against military bases and facilities rather than civilian populations, the British would have had a significant loss in production and defense capabilities.

First, I assume you mean in 1940. The Luftwaffe was suffering heavy losses by the time tactics were changed to night bombing, widely known as the London Blitz although London was by no means the only target. Industrial towns & factories all over Britain were continually bombed during this period & some suffered heavy damage. The Spitfire factory at Southampton was attacked more than once but by this time manufacture of vital war supplies had been dispersed.

The Luftwaffe's most effective precision bomber, the Ju 87 Stuka, was vulnerable to modern fighters & had been withdrawn from front-line service on August 18th, 1940 after suffering unsustainable losses. It never served on the Western front again. The German fighter pilots had been instructed to stick with the bombers to protect them & could no longer patrol above them keeping watch. Even though the RAF was still losing aircraft & pilots every day, large numbers of fighters were there to meet the bombers on every daylight raid. This must have been demoralising for the enemy aircrews. There were also reserve fighter squadrons based to the north & out of range of the German fighters which could have been brought into play if necessary. Unlike the Luftwaffe, the RAF's main problem in late 1940 was an acute shortage of trained fighter pilots, not aircraft.

when Hitler declared war on the US, he made himself a target. At that point, he now had to face both the Soviet Military and the US forces. HAD HE DECIDED TO NOT declare such a war, his resources and attention would have been more focused rather than divided. Thus, making it difficult for the Brits to defend themselves and Hitler would have had enough troops to halt the Soviet onslaught.

He would have then conquered Britain and begin concentrating on a larger naval force that can reach and attack the US eastern seaboard. And since the US wouldn't have defeated the Germans, they then couldn't be able to develope the two bombs. Thus continueing the the war.

After studying this period in some depth for a number of years I've come to believe that a successful invasion of Britain was highly unlikely. As I mentioned above, Goering's Luftwaffe had failed to destroy RAF Fighter Command as he'd promised. It was quite clear that air superiority was a prime requirement before any invasion would be contemplated. Even if the RAF had been defeated, Britain had the most powerful navy in the world at that time while the Kriegsmarine was confined to harbour. No German general had any experience of waterborne invasion or army/navy combined operations. The invasion fleet, if it could be called that, comprised mainly of hastily converted river barges which were totally unsuited to operation in the open sea. I've seen it stated that a single high-speed pass by a British destroyer would have been enough to swamp & sink any number of invasion barges. What the British most feared was invasion from the air but in fact Germany had nowhere near sufficient trained airborne troops or aircraft to carry them for that to be successful. Almost every field & open space in Britain was filled with anti-glider obstacles. Without total air superiority the Ju 52 transports would have been easy prey for the Hurricanes & Spitfires.

had he also decided to keep the Me262 as a fighter, the props like the mustangs would not have been able to do anything to stop them.

This is debatable. We've already discussed this at length & it had been proved that the Me 262 could be brought down by conventional fighters. Unless there were overwhelming numbers of them & sufficient experienced pilots to fly them I don't think it would have made much difference.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby james007 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:39 am

Great point Hargar. Let me add another point that most people don"t know.

The Battle was a British Goverment invention. In reality Hitler never took the Invation of Britain very seriuosly since he never realy wanted to fight the British in the first place.

He admire them very much before the war and would have rather have them as ally than a enemy.

He had this notion of land and sea powers theory at the time. He consider Britain a sea power thus not a compettitor for resources.

He had this notion that the British where very similar in their gene pool and national characteristic to the Germans.

Like Hagar wrote their navy and army where simply not properly train nor supply for such a complex task.

He simply used his attack on Britain to distract the world attention from his up comming invation of the Soviet Union.

The only thing that I would disagree with Hagar and that only in hinsight is on the notion that the Royal Navy was the most powerful Navy in the world at that time.

The most power Navy in the world at that time was the Japanese Imperial Navy. They where the
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Hagar » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:58 am

I agree with James that Hitler had never seriously contemplated fighting Britain. I believe he still hoped for some sort of non-aggression pact with the British government, even when making half-hearted preparations for invasion in 1940. This would have allowed him to concentrate on Operation Barbarossa, his attack on the Soviet Union which was his real objective. I believe this might well have happened if not for one man, Winston Churchill - who was to be a constant thorn in Hitler's side. I've made this point before in various discussions in the History forum.

The only thing that I would disagree with Hagar and that only in hinsight is on the notion that the Royal Navy was the most powerful Navy in the world at that time.

You could be right. I'm no expert on naval matters & Japan had not entered the war in 1940. Japan had been an ally in WWI & the Imperial Navy was based on the Royal Navy.

So you see Hitlers biggest mistake was to declare war on the United State.

I don't think anyone would argue with that.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Mathias » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:10 am

Mathias with all due respect. Your coments are only half true. The P47 and P51 did take on the Luftwaffe best and beat them at their game.

Few Luftwaffe Aces where shot down before the Americans started to show up in significant numbers.

You have to remember that the Luftwaffe moved most of thier best air forces unit to the West after after the Battle of Kursk.

As matter of fact the Luftwaffe was at its peak in the middle of 1943.

Its no accident that it started to lost control of the skies over Europe Late 1943 and the spring of 1944.

I disagree with your assestment. What I found out thru much reading and in flying this Simulators is that Bf109 and Fw190 where nice planes but way overated.

I find the German piilots where the ones with their great team work that made this planes way better than they realy where.

I"m sorry but the P51 and the P47 where the better planes not to mention the SpitfireVIII and abouve.

I know you are a tremendous fan of the Fw190 and the Bf109 and that blinds you to reality. But thats the simple truth.

Its also true that the Eastern Front was where the Nazis lost the war. But it lost it in the ground not in the Air.

you are a smart and nice guy. Do not let your passion blind you.

Have a good day friend

This is just a opinion

James007





James, with all due respect but your mixture of implying and socalled facts is a bit odd. Seems to me you are the one mixing some weird personal case you seem to have with me with pilots romantics.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby dcunning30 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:36 am

My opinion, the Me109 was showing it's age by 1944.  The Fw190 seemed to be the LW's front line fighter.  Anyway, I think the major considerations were the British and American bombing compaigns were showing their effectiveness by 1944.  And after the Big Week, the LW was on the ropes.  I consider two factors, in fact 3 for the LW's decline.

* Poor high level leadership.  Hitler was going mad, Goering was inept.  Adolph Galland was most capable of running the air war, but that wasn't going to happen.

* The allies were much more able to resupply their forces with parts and planes than the LW. And...

*Atrittion!!!!!!!! Atrittion!!!!!!! Attrition!!!!!!!!
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby james007 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:32 am

Mathias , Mathias please their no reason I should have anything against you or any one else when it comes to matters of opinions on World war 2.LoL

I do not disagree with your opinion  that the war was a of attrition. Thats the main reason the Axis lost the war. I totally agree with you.

I admit that it does bother me a bit when people defend a plane or a what I consider a incorrect historical fact that feel is incorrect.

But my opinions are just that a opinion. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the German people.

I was there quite a few years ago and I love your country. I believe your German. Correct me if I"m wrong.

I do not know you personaly but you come across in your many post like a very nice person who knows what his talking about.

We can have different opinions and still respect and maybe perhaps like each other.

Haven"t you had argument with your other family members and still to talk to them afterward.

I"m truely sorry if I offend you.

I want for you or any one else who may feel be offended by anything that I have written.

Please post it here.

I have no intention of hurting any one feelings thru a misintrepertation of what I have written.

My only intention is to have a interchange of historical opinions for the benefit of all.

I truely believe that the more we learn about World 2 the more we will appreciate this WW2 Simulators.

This post came from the Heart

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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby dcunning30 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:58 am

james007,

You're quite the gentleman.  That is obvious, but not to worry, I'm sure it's all good. That's what debate on the internet is about.  Sometimes debaters become passionate about their opinions.  Any sometimes debaters forcefully disagree.  But in the end,  tomorrow will be another day!  ;)
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Hagar » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:02 pm

[quote]james007,

You're quite the gentleman.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby MadTIGERmaN » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:44 pm

Okay, lets settle this the easy way.

As the war went on,  the Spit MkIX was much improved over the Spits MXV and MKII,  and hte MKXIV was even better.. and so on.

The P-51D was a much better plane then the B and C (even though the only difference between the B and C is one is from Cali the other from Texas)

The late versions of the P-47 were some of the fastest piston powered planes around.

In the Pacific,  the Corsairs got faster,  the Wildcats upgraded to Hellcats,  with the Bearcats soon to follow.

the upgrade process is probably most notable in the Spits,  as there is a pretty huge difference between the MkV and the MkXIV.

Now when you look at Me109 and Fw190,  I just dont see it.  Or at least, you just dont hear about it like you do with the Spits, Mustangs and others.  Everyone talks about how when the P-51D's showed up things really started changing.   But you never really hear about the different makes of the Me or FW.   Its always just the standard Me109, or FW190.....    

So prop vs prop,  i dont think theres much a debate.  The allies had the superrio prop planes.  

If the war had continued, the Bearcat, Tigercat, SeaFury and Hornets would have out performed everything in my opion.  Tigercats and Hornets would have replaced Mossies, Jugs and Lightnings as the top ground support planes.  and the Bearcats, SeaFurys,  along with the hold over Mustangs, Corsairs and late Spits would have held the fighter edge.

Now when you factor in the Jets.  The only thing they had going for them was top speed.  THATS IT.  They could not turn with the prop planes, did not have the range of the prop planes,  and could not even out climb the best prop planes.  So in an actual dog fight,  if a Me262 is going to have to use a hit and run tactic,  the min the Me 262 pilot starts to turn / slow down on a Mustang,   someone else will jump the 262.

but it does really come down to a numbers game.   And by this point in the war, the numbers were far to great.  Even if the Germans held on until 46....   with the constant bombings,  How many Me262's would it have taken to stop the 1000 plane raids of the Allies?
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Hagar » Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:46 pm

I agree with most of what you say MadTIGERmaN, except this.
[quote]As the war went on,
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby MadTIGERmaN » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:32 am

I am aware Hagar of the later Me109's and Fw190's,  But non of the versions really stand out.

Unlike the P51D,  or Spit MkIX, and MkXIV,  

possible the reason for this (and this is my opinion) is that as the Me109 and Fw190s variants came into the war....  the upgraded Allied planes were a step ahead.

But who knows really, its so hard to judge, the Allies got such a numbers advantage.  And the Heavy Bomber raids were defeintly going to end Germanys war machine sooner or later.  Even if the Germans were able to stop the US daylight raids,  if things got THAT bad,  then they just switch over to night too.  Which means they wouldnt need as many guns in the B-17s and 24s... carry more bombs... so on so on.... so much to speculate and what not.


Maybe im just being nieve,  I just see greater improvments in the Allied figher variants.
Especially if you look at the line of Grumman Cats.   Or the replacement of the Dauntless SBD,  the Skyraider.  

It would be interesting to find out just how the air war would have shook out if it had continued on.   How many more years would Wildcats stayed on Navy ships? (as they were the ONLY Navy fighters to fight the whole war, in all major battles)  Could the Me262 had stoped the bombers?  could the Mustangs and Spits and Jugs held the jet age off over Europe?   Could the Bear and Tigercat stop the Kamakazees before they attacked.  Would Skyraiders replace heavy bombers?  (They could after all carry a greater weapons load out the B-17's)
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby Hagar » Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:09 am

[quote]I am aware Hagar of the later Me109's and Fw190's,
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby H » Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:40 am

Once the US got involved it was only a matter of time & the outcome was almost a foregone conclusion. Japan made a big mistake in attacking Pearl Harbor & Hitler sealed his fate by supporting his ally. Both countries were low on resources in 1945 & the manufacturing power & sheer numbers of the Allies was too great. This was one of the reasons they were at war in the first place.

This is an interesting point & I'm not sure what would have happened if losses had continued on that scale for much longer. Night bombing is not the most accurate as the Luftwaffe & RAF found out (although they didn't have the Norden bombsight). It also brings other problems as the Luftwaffe nightfighters were already very effective. I think we came very close to finding out before the P-51D appeared on the scene, hence my remark in my first reply. If a single aircraft changed the course of the war in Europe it was the Mustang.

I'll start with the latter part of your quote to emphasize the rest. Coupled with an injected Merlin engine and an able pilot, the P51 was even a threat to the Me262. Add your other points to that: Germany and Japan had been exhausting their supplies in war for years before Japan succeeded in initiating those efforts by the US. With mass-produced P51s, et. al., the Axis bit off more than they could chew. Unlike WW1, the US's own ability for fast technological advancement was able enough when they entered the war.
As to Hitler's declaration of war against the US, it's rather moot but:
Even had he not outright done so, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" so, since the UK was already at war with Japan, the US would automatically be an ally of the UK. The UK would have been able to put more resources toward the homefront as the US would have directed even more arms and equipment that much sooner against Japan (outnumbered and utilizing its older planes, the US still managed to smash the IJN at Midway -- much sooner than Yamamoto thought possible). As an ally against Japan, the US would have still be supplied the UK with even more supplies, as well.
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Re: US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

Postby dcunning30 » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:09 am

I have a question regarding Hitler and strategies toward England and the Soviet Union.  Do you think we might be giving the Bohemian Corporal too much credit as such a grand strategist?  Hitler seems to me that he went on instinct, and for the first part, his instincts won over the career Generals, so they deferred to him.  And when things became strategically difficult for Germany, Hitler's lack of skill, training, and education doomed the Reich.

I think he did want to invade Britian.  Especially since we know that Hitler was given to his emotional swings and acted upon his emotions.  I think he was insensed that England had the nerve to stand up to him and he wanted to punish them.  I've seen footage of Hitler speeches discussing England, and in those speeches, he seemed quite insensed and wanted to punish the British, especially after the British returned the favor after the LW accadentally bombed London.
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