US/Brits late war vs Japs/Germans

[MadTIGERmaN]

I recently got into a discusion with someone over the late WW2 planes of Germany.  They argued that the ME262 would have changed the war, if Germany had held the ground war better.  And then went on to bring up other German planes on the horizon.

But as the conversation carried on,  I came to the conclusion,  that the only plane that would have made a difference is a long range jet Bomber.  Simply because the Late war piston planes that the Allied forces were putting up,  out classed just about all Jets,  well into the Korean war even.

The F8F Bearcat held all speed to climb records until I believe the Starfighter came along?  I know it was a jet with an after burner that finally beat it, but the Bearcat could out climb Sabers and early Migs.  Sure the top speed wasnt there,  But with the Bearcats turning radius,  no Jet was going to get a clean shot off anyway.

Same can be said for the Sea Fury,  Spitfire MkXIV (and up)  Late model Corsairs and Mustangs.  In the Korean War,  a Corsair and SeaFury even had kills vs Migs.

And as for Attack planes or Close Air support, the Tigercats and Skyraiders both were excellent airplanes.  Neither would match up against a jet well,  especially not the Skyraider,  BUT,  in the skyraiders case, it was used well into the Vietnam era even, because it did its job better then any jets of its time.   And the Tigercat would have made such a great close air support plane,  if it would have been given the chance, that it went on to be one of the best close air support FIRE fighters in its post war life.

So i ask the flight sim world,  many of whom im sure have all taken spins in many of these late war planes.

Would the ME262, HE162, ME163, or any other early Jet the Axis were flying, really have made THAT big of a difference in the air war?

I personaly dont think so.  

[ozzy72]

The problem with the 262 was that Hitler wanted to use it as a bomber. If he had let them use it as a fighter it would have made a significant difference, but also there was a shortage of experienced pilots who could really fly it.....
The 262 was far better than any of the piston engined fighters of the day, faster, better climb rate etc.

[HawkerTempest5]

I'm sure that large numbers of German jets appearing over Europe in 1944/45 would have had a major impact but such was the allies ability to produce and design new types late in the war that it would not have been long before the Meteor, Vampire and P-80 started coming along in numbers to match. The 262 was arguably a better aircraft that all the early allied jets but I think the ability to out produce the Germans and the need that would have been created to improve the allied jets to match their opponents would have swung the tide back again in favour of the allies.
Had the allies not had a jet on the horizon and Germany been able to get the 262 into mass production and squadron service by early 1944, I

[dcunning30]

Also, the ME262, though a superior fighter suffered from the allied bomber campaign up to that point.  The Junkers Jumo engines were built with inferior metalurgy just because so many production facilities had already been destroyed.  The ME262 went through engines.  That end up being a manufacturing and maintanence nightmare.  Also, they were built in underground facilities and employed a slave labor workforce.  I can imaging that causing a QC and speed of manufacturing issues.

[Bombardier101]

Well, a bomber? The things the Me262 were good for are:

-bomber interception fighter

-fighter bomber (Me262A-1 U4)

-anti-ship (Me262A-1 U4)

Why do I think of these? I fly the Me262A U4 alot on CFS3 )

Any others you have I could add to my list...

Metallurgy was a problem. And Hitler must have been another bomb nut. He hated calling it a fighter-bomber, instead: "Super Speed Bomber"

Lol! What a nutcase!

[Hagar]

I'm not sure that a single aircraft can change a war however good it might be. The nearest example I can think of is the P-51 Mustang in its new role as escort fighter in the 8th Air Force over Europe. This anonymous quote seems to sum the whole thing up. "The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin". The Mustang was also available in large quantities. It was reliable & very effective in that role.

It's no use having the finest aircraft in the world if you don't use it to its best advantage. This depends on the situation at the time. Jets are thirsty & the Me 262 had a comparatively short range. Something like 500 miles compared with the 2,000 miles of the P-51 fitted with drop tanks. This made it more suitable as a defensive interceptor or a fighter-bomber. I haven't studied its performance or effective payload but most early jets were not that manoeuvrable. Its obvious role would be as an interceptor against the constant stream of Allied bombers attacking Germany at will. For that to be any use you need large numbers of aircraft & sufficient trained pilots to fly them. It would also be faced with large numbers of Allied escort fighters like the Mustang & vulnerable to attack at its bases.

"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."

General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter.

Depending on where it was based it wouldn't have been suitable for anything in the medium-range offensive role except lightning raids over Britain. Get in, attack & get out fast. It would possibly have been very effective in the ground support role after the 1944 Allied invasion in the same way as the Typhoon, Tempest & P-47 which were all originally intended as high-performance fighters. In this case Hitler might not have been as stupid as he's made out to be.

Jet engines were very unreliable with a short service life long after WWII was over. This was not only a German problem but the manufacturing difficulties & lack of resources that dcunning mentions wouldn't have helped. I've seen it stated that the service life of the Jumo engines in the Me 262 was less than 10 hours before they needed replacement. Hardly an effective superweapon unless airframes & engines could be produced in large quanties & the pilots found to fly them.

[james007]

Hadgar you hit it on the nose. I could not have written a better post than you have. I agree with everything you have written on the subject.

What bother me Hadgar is that many aviation historians still insist on that thesis that Hitler made decisive mistake when he choce to make the Me262 in a fighter Bomber.

The facts are that the Me262 was not going to make a hip of a difference in the wars outcome.

The war was decided when Hitler declared war on the USA and Japan lost the battle of Midway.

I have alway been surprise on how many LW apologist are out there. Always looking for excuses on why Germany lost the war.

I did not mention the Invation of Russia because that was Hitler"s intention all along. Jun 22,1941 was his window of opportunity, period.

Yes that was a big mistake but Germany was doom by the Nazi regime to such a mistake.

Thank you Hadgar for your post again.

The more we learn about World war two the more we may appreciate this and the other Simulators base on that war.

James007

[MadTIGERmaN]

Ozzy,  the ME262 DID NOT have a better climb rate then the piston fighters, the F8F Bearcat held all major time to climb records until a after burning Jet came along (again i blieve it was the F104),  IN FACT,  Bearcats held most time to climb records for piston powered single engine aircraft until the Exxon Mobil plane started breaking them with in the last few years.   AND, the Rare Bear still holds the record for climb to 10,000 feet at a hauling 1min 30 seconds i blieve.

Ive read a book on the Korean war conflict,  and most piston powered pilots did not fear the MIGS at all, as long as they kept an eye out,  as long as the Migs did not jump them,   the knew the Mig would never get behind them.  And I believe it the Corsair pilot who shot down a MIg, actually was out numbered 6 or 8 to 2 when he did so.

The only German plane I know of that MAY have made a difference, would have been the giant flying wing/jet bomber.   Cant recall the name/number on it, but it was top secret and was not to be available for first flights till something like 1946 even,  BUT if they would have been able to hold out, and produce that Jet,  its rumored it would have been able to take off in Berlin,  fly to say, New York, or Washington,  drop its payload (which could have been atomic by this point)  and then ditched in the Atlantic.  
Other the that, i dont see the ME262 or any of the others doing much.

The number of Mustangs, and Spitfires along would have done the job,  then add in the likes of the Last 2 cats, Super Corsairs, Sea Furys,  and the early Allied Jets.....   the numbers alone would have been enough.

[Hagar]

Top speed & rate of climb are not necessarily a big advantage, providing you have adequate warning. Speed can actually be a disadvantage in close combat as the early jet pilots (& some high-performance pistons) found when attacking slower piston-engined types. I think I read somewhere that the Me 262 had no airbrakes so this would give the pilot less time to aim & fire, meaning he would have to be a pretty good shot to do enough damage on a single pass. A big prop acts as an airbrake when you reduce throttle which means you have more control over the speed when lining up on a target. Of course, by slowing down when attacking bombers you give the defending gunners more time to shoot back. In the case of the Allied daylight bomber raids there should have been plenty of time for the conventional piston-engined interceptors to do the job. I think the problem was in numbers, of both aircraft & trained pilots.

[dcunning30]

True, rate of climb and top speed can be a disadvantage, but these attributes can come in handy when you need to flee an engagement to save your life.  Especially top speed.  But the probmen with the ME262 as with jets in general is they don't immediately accelerate.  There's always a lag.

[MadTIGERmaN]

That was the big advantage in the Tigercat (although it never got to use it, as by the time it got into combat it was the Jet ages)

It supposedly can out accelerate anything.  And if youve ever flown this one
http://www.simviation.com/files/2cfs/Cfstig10.zip
Youll see what I mean.  Course you can also pull out of a dive going over 500 in it with ease,  which wouldnt happen,  but cant complain too much.


Heres a cool page i found on the Korean air war,  has a nice right up on the Corsair and Tigercats in Korea skies.

http://kalaniosullivan.com/KunsanAB/VMF ... sa1ac.html

[HawkerTempest5]

Ozzy,  the ME262 DID NOT have a better climb rate then the piston fighters, the F8F Bearcat held all major time to climb records until a after burning Jet came along (again i blieve it was the F104),  IN FACT,  Bearcats held most time to climb records for piston powered single engine aircraft until the Exxon Mobil plane started breaking them with in the last few years.   AND, the Rare Bear still holds the record for climb to 10,000 feet at a hauling 1min 30 seconds i blieve.

Not really fare to compare the 262 to the Bearcat as the Bearcat came much later and was designed as a fast carrier based fighter interceptor for service in the Pacific theatre. It was never destined for deployment in the ETO. I doubt the 262 would have caused much trouble to the Sea Fury (or Fury) for that matter. Neither type saw service in World War 2 and so don't really count as far as this discussion is concerned. Ozzy was making the comarison between the 262 and the piston engined aircraft it was most likely to come up against, such as the Spitfire IX and XIV, Tempest and Mustang.

[Mathias]

Don't think that any plane had changed (or actually has for that matter) the outcome of the war, not even the Me262 if it had been given priority early what shure would have put her in service 2 years earlier.
The war was fought won and lost in the east.
The P-51 as a warwinner is a bit of a myth.
By the time it appeared over european skies had the Luftwaffe long been a shadow of itself, attrition being the name of the game.
At the end of the day it was the

[james007]

Mathias with all due respect. Your coments are only half true. The P47 and P51 did take on the Luftwaffe best and beat them at their game.

Few Luftwaffe Aces where shot down before the Americans started to show up in significant numbers.

You have to remember that the Luftwaffe moved most of thier best air forces unit to the West after after the Battle of Kursk.

As matter of fact the Luftwaffe was at its peak in the middle of 1943.

Its no accident that it started to lost control of the skies over Europe Late 1943 and the spring of 1944.

I disagree with your assestment. What I found out thru much reading and in flying this Simulators is that Bf109 and Fw190 where nice planes but way overated.

I find the German piilots where the ones with their great team work that made this planes way better than they realy where.

I"m sorry but the P51 and the P47 where the better planes not to mention the SpitfireVIII and abouve.

I know you are a tremendous fan of the Fw190 and the Bf109 and that blinds you to reality. But thats the simple truth.

Its also true that the Eastern Front was where the Nazis lost the war. But it lost it in the ground not in the Air.

you are a smart and nice guy. Do not let your passion blind you.

Have a good day friend

This is just a opinion

James007

[MadTIGERmaN]

Lets not forget Hawker, that the Japenese had a version of the ME262 that they too were usen.  
The Tigercat was flying its first combat mission/sortie the day the Japanese official surrendered, and the Bearcats were on a carrier on there way,  So give another month or so, and the Cats could have very well flew up against the Japenese ME262.....   And that is infact what my topic that i started is about    

Alot of people will say "If the war lasted longer, the German Jets would have made a big impact"

BUT I say they wouldnt have, as the piston fighters that were coming out late in the war,  including the ones that would have com out if the war went on longer,  would have matched up well against these German planes.

Infact,  im going to say that if the Germans had the Tigercat or Bearcat, that they would have made a larger impact,  as putting the 2 up together would have made a great bomber formation interceptor.  the Tigercat goes after the bombers with its 8 guns,  and the Bearcats keep the fighters off them.



Im going to agree with both James and Mathias on the last point.

Ive often felt the P-51 was a bit over blown.  But at the same time its still a great plane.  I think the problem is,  is that the Germans were already so drained by the time the Mustangs were cranking into Germany.  sure it was still there best pilots,  but these guys were flying for how many years in war already?  and how many missions a day?  Where the US pilots were fresh, and hungry.   And lets not forget the Germans "bail out and you can fly again" mentalitiy.  

Ill agree that the P-51, P-47, and Spits were better then the German planes.

But id take the Corsair, over them,   and of course the Tigercat (my personal fav)