Which tactics are best?

[Corsair Freak]

[quote]i would assume, as the Corsair was the first to hit 400,

[james007]

MadTIGErnaN those claim of the Flying Tiger shooting down 290 enemies while they only lost 4 is pure Mythical.

Not true. Common sense will tell you thats a myth. First of all the Japanese only had only a few hundred planes

[dcunning30]

james007,

Give me some time to read those links.  I started the MacGuire link and it's interesting.  Anyway, to peel away the myth, what about Grey Boyington?  Some of his claimed "kills" happened to be planes he destroyed on the ground.

And that silver star Pres. Johnson wore on his lapel?  It has been said that he recieved that on a mission that he never seen combat in.  The bomber he rode in as *passenger* turned back due to mechanical troubles.  Yet he was the only person on that mission who received any accomodation.  Call it a gift from MacArthur who may have been greasing the palm of someone who might come in handy for any future political aspirations on the part of the General.

[james007]

Dcunning30 I"m very impressed with your knowledge on World war two. You are the kind of person that I would love to have a long conversation about the subject at hand.

All I"m asking to for you and others is to use your knowledge and common sense when reseaching World war two history.

I think now your are begining to understand what I"m trying get you to comprehend.

The Pacific war was tougher and more costly than reported at the time. The reason for it where many.One was to to modivate the public and keep them confident that at  the end of the war our notion of whats was real before the war was still true after it was over.

Of course that did not happen. Everything change after that. The days of colonial rule and feeling of European cultural superiorty over others where over.

The start of the women equality movement and the demand for racial equalities got a tremendous bust from the war.

Never again will one culture feel completly superior to another.

The shame is that it took a horrorable war for this Ideas and movement to get more accepted.

This is only a opinion

James007

[Corsair Freak]

I agree with you whole heartedly James,

A hero in my eyes is not some superstrong, all-knowing 'hercules' but someone who is more human, who went through struggles and hardship's that I will never know... I think algebra is hard... what about having a friend that was shot down and killed over some country you have never heard of? or someone who rams their plane into an enemy bomber that's about to drop it's load on a friendly base? now that, in my honest opinion, is a hero.



Good Hunting,
Brandon

[MadTIGERmaN]

So James are you saying the Japs won the air war over Burma?   Cause if i remember correct,  from the History Channels "The Real Flying Tigers"  The Tigers never lost the air war.  The Japenese ground forces forced the Tigers to move their basses farther into China,  and they continuced to support the Chinese from there.  And then when the main Japanese force was headed up the Burma road into China,  the Chinese blew up some bridge causing a traffic jam in which the Tigers shot up the Japenese army.

And at some other base,  the Tigers left paper replica P-40's at the airport and a few real P-40's that would go up... and the Japenese never attacked that area again.  (course im not sure where in China this was?  Maybe it was not a strategic place of importance so the Japenese figured why waiste fule/ammo/pilots on something unimportant to their conquest)

And you did bring up an interesting point that i was thinking about well watching this program.

If the P-40's of the Tigers were going up to stop air raids, it was mostly bombers.  And this is early in the war, before any country had well defended bombers.  (just look at those early versions of the B-17 and B-24s) And from flying CFS2,  It does appear easy to take down Vals and Kates when you dive on them (which is what the Flying Tigers did,  dive/hit and run attacks)  So if they were diving on bomber formations,  a high kill count would not be all that hard to believe.  But 290-4 is a bit beyond a high kill count.  Then of course you have Boyington claiming 4 kills that were SHARED GROUND kills.  Not confirmed to him, nor in the air when he was with the Tigers.

But with all that said and down,  what they did was still remarkable, and inspiring.    In fact its said that even in the midst of the cold war,  when the US was at war in Korea, and Vietnam,  with China unofficially at war with the US,  That the chinese still had a special place for the Flying Tigers.

[james007]

MadTIGERaN I'm sorry tell you this. The Japanese had complete air superriority throughout the Burmese campaign of 1942.

The Flying Tiger never where alble to take that from them. Like I said before they are my heroe as they are your yours.

As matter of fact the more I get to the facts the better they look to me.

Had they fought a whimpy enemy that would have been ready and willing to be shoot down that easy as Mithycal history portraits than it would have taken the glair of their achievement away.

They where succesful, brave and very good pitols with great taitics.

They just did not shoot down 290 planes. Its just not common sense.

They are surely Heroes in my book.

I recommen you read as much about this and the many other subjects on World war 2 as possible and always keep a open mind.

World war two is facinating period in history.

Please do not just concentrate on just one Thearter or another. Concentrate on the whole war.

This was the first truely World war and should be treated as such.

Last put not least be as objective as possible.

James007

[dcunning30]

I must admit I've not paid much attention to the Burma campaign, but I did find this site while I was googling to bone up on the subject.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/jaafhist.htm

[dcunning30]

james007,

I've always comprehended the fact that the US is not perfect and have done things in the past that are deceptive or even just plain bad.

[james007]

I will tell one thing about me Dcunning. I"M totally Loyal to this country and most of all to the Contitution. If by clarifying things for the purity of Historical purity

[MadTIGERmaN]

Im going to have to disagree James,  and the Flying Tiger pilots themselves im sure will too.  In fact ive heard Tex Hill speak at the airshow in Oshkosh a few times.  

If the Japenese had air superriority,  They would have had more kills.  They indeed did put up more numbers then the AVG,  BUt if that gives you Air Superriority, then i suppose the Germans had it over England during the Battle of Britain as well?


I think the Burma campaigne is definetly one of the more interesting ones,  As it never really appears like the Japenese go after air superriority,  in fact, they almost seem to ignore the AVG all together, and concentrate on their bombing runs and air raids instead of winning the air war first.

Im not saying the AVG had the air superriority,  BUT,  the Japanese did not either,  Not at least until the AVG pulled out,  but by that point, the Chinese army had Halted the Japenese army.


When it comes to doing whats right/wrong in war,  Ive found an interesting coincedence with this.  I think it is directly connected with the type of person and their background to begin with BEFORE they join the service.  ESPECIALLY in todays military.  The majority of recruits for todays armed forces are coming from low income families where this maybe the only way for the person to get the money to go to college.   A gang member joins up to get off the streets,  a trailor park kid joins up to get out of the mobil home.   A redneck joins up to get out of the shack that he lives in.  A farmboy joins up to get off the farm.....    They go off to bootcamp where its drilled into them "America rules, the other guys are bad"  Back during WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and those wars,  the enemy even given colorful nicknames like "Charlie" and what not,  to further show that they are inferior.   These lo-educated soldiers get brainwashed so easily,  and get to a point of thinking that they dont even look at the enemy as a human anymore.  I think this can really be seen in todays armed forces more so then WW2.   But this is really a whole nother topic,  and really something thats hard to discuss....   As once a soldier gets a conscience for what they are doing, theyre as good as dead.

[dcunning30]

james007,

My apologies.

[dcunning30]

[quote]I think it is directly connected with the type of person and their background to begin with BEFORE they join the service.

[james007]

I more than accept your apologies Dcunning. You still do not understand what I"m trying expose in my many post.

Its not about the Victor writting history. That always going be the case in history.

It may have been to demostrate to our population our superiority over the enemy and in our rush for revenge and with our humilation at Pear Harbor we might have dehuminize our enemy a bit too much. In doing so we might have hurt the honor of our men by deminishing their accomplishments.

In other words. If you beat up a boyscout before you got to work because he steped on you shoes is not the same as confronting a 250 LBS man because has insulted a lady on your way to work.

We in our zest to keep morale up we may have done just that . Turn the Japanese into little boys beaten by us. You do not get credit enough for beating little boys but you do for confronting a 250Lbs and defending a Ladies honor.

In other words we may have turn the Pacific air war to looked and feel to easy when the reality may have been a lot tougher than officialy written.

In such case, our air men are not getting their due credit.

Why do you think that there is a lot more European dedicated simulator in the Market. Its because there is a lot more interest in a air war where the assumtion is that

[MadTIGERmaN]

I should clarify DC,   And i should not have said majority.

BUt at the same time ill stand by what I said,  As its those brainwashed soldiers that useally end up doing something stuipd,  like the prison in Iraq.  

Theres a great scene in I believe the 2nd episode of Band of Brothers that tells alot.  when one of the US troops stumbles across a German POD who actually was an American from a city near to where the American was from.  This soldier, and many others find out,   Hey, these people arnt that bad?  Its just our governments clashing over whatever....  

Then you could watch a movie like Full Metal Jacket,  in which the Helicopter Machine Gunner gets asked "how do you know which ones too shoot at, and he replies "If they run, theyre VC,  if they dont run, theyre well trained VC"  Basically this fictional character embodies the "brainwashed soldier"  Where he does not see a human,  he sees an enemy that must die.  On all sides of every war, there are people with this mentalitiy. Most notable Hiter and the Nazis.  Anyway, this is gettin way off subject so ill wrap it up by saying that i respect people who join up and commet to such a thing as serving,  BUT there are alot of people who join up,  who are unable to determine right from wrong but are giving a gun anyway.....  (Some of them even end up running things)

and i wouldnt say the History books are written by the victors,  They are written by the country your in.  China has recently been upset with Japan, because in the new edition of Japans history books for the schools,  they ignore the horrible things that the Japanese did in China,  and make Japan out to be the "Good guys"


Can you imagine a history book in 50 years saying "In 2003,  We (the US) invaded Iraq and forced them to become a democratic country.....  Of course not, it will say we liberated a surpressed people.



GREAT TACTIC OF THE NIGHT

The Dam Busters,  now that was some sort of tactic