Which tactics are best?

[dcunning30]

james007, Excellent points.

I had been limiting my comments to the Pacific War, but I don't mind a broader discussion:


"If its Naval you have to give to credit where credit is due. Imperial Japan naval aviators early in the war were probably the best in training and skill in history. "

Totally agreed.

[Bombardier101]

Agreed all.

It isn't fair that the war criminals on the winning side don't be punished. Arthur Harris was horrid. He never did anything much constructive when he was a lad, and he just went nuts over bombing civilians. A bomb nut like Hitler

Urrm, what did LeMay do? Never heard of him...

What even was the Thach Weave? All sources of info on the net and in books tell you what these great tactics were called, but never tell you what the tactic was...



Happy flying,

Bombardier

[Corsair Freak]

What even was the Thach Weave? All sources of info on the net and in books tell you what these great tactics were called, but never tell you what the tactic was...

I would love to know too... in the CFS2 manual they speak of the "Thach Weave" but they don't show you, or tell you what it is or how to execute it.  :-X


Good Hunting,
Brandon

[james007]

Dccuning when I made the comment that the Japanese or our enemy has not gotten due credit for their military value. I meant it not for you.

I have agree with almost all you written so far. That comment was reserve those for of us who have just started getting interested in the subject of World war two.

You mention Hugh Dowding, he is one of my favorite Heroes of the war.

Look at how entrage the British where in their caste system of Royalty and nobles that they basically demoted him after the Battle of Britain because he disagree with one of his Surbordinate on how to conduct Battle. His rival had good connections with higher ups and they basically retire him early.

What a lost to Britain in a momment of her most need.
The critisism was meant not for Battle tatics but actual airial formation and other tatics.

For those of us love history in general and World war in particular. Its important that try to be as objective in your research and evaluation as best as human possible.

Do not take side and and try to see everything from as many different angles as possibles. Do not to change history but bee open minded for different point of views.

Know that not everything written is the absolute truth.

Offical history is not the final truth nor reputable historian have all the truth in their writing.

Reseach and research as much as possible. You also need to bee able to place your self at that period in time you are looking into and allow your self to think like they thought at the time period are you reseaching.

I also hate revisionist as much as any body who like the purity of history.

They like to change history and thus the truth of history.

But I do like the clarification of history for the purity of it.

I will write many thing that may bee historial offensive to some. But if you really think about it you might bee able to see that I might be right.

The first one I will write about is Pearl Harbor.

Do you guys know that we pushed Japan into attacking Pear Harbor.

How is that possible when we have always been told that Japan sneek attack us while we slept.

Not true. We place a Oil enbargo on Japan to encorage them to stop them from expanding

[MadTIGERmaN]

Ive long called Pearl Harbor the first "Oil War"  as it was Oil that brought the Japenese to attack the US.


Heres something maybe you pacific war buffs can help me out on.

How is it that the P-38, P-40 (by whatever name you wish to call it), Wildcat, Hellcat and Corsair all have such awesome kill ratios?  I think i once saw the Hellcat was like 18-1,  and it was 12-1 vs the Zero?   Its just always troubled me with the Pacific fighters, they all have + kill ratios.  And by good margins at that.   If you add the 5 main US Fighers of the area up,  youd get a kill ratio of something like 50-1.  If 100 US planes were shot down, that means they shot down 5000 Japs?????  

Maybe someone can shed the light on these numbers,  perhaps give us Japans kill ratios?



Another aspect of WW2's air war that always interested me,  was the difference in planes,  And just how would the Pacific fighters would have faired vs the Germans,  or how the European planes would have faired in the pacific,  or,  if say German and Japan had won the war, and eventually taken on each other,  How would the Zero vs the ME109 go?

As for Russia,  they are so hard to judge during this time, because the weather is so harsh.   Even the German planes did not fair well once they hit the Russian Winter.

Anyone wanna take a nice transport flight in a JU52 over russia in the middle of January?



And on to the Brits.....
Battle of Britain is just amazing.....  
But the thing that always stands out for me, is their night bombing.    The British went and staged 1000 plane attacks on German,  in the thick of the black night skies,  with huge 4 engined bombers.  Before the war started,  no one really even knew effect heavy bombers would have on a war (note Germany and Japan didnt even invest in a legit heavy bomber)  England went ahead with the Lancasters and Halifax's and showed what they could do.   Can any of you in England imagine the sight of 1000 planes in the air forming up?   Hard to do right....  now have them do it in the black of night.....  (course the US did it in the thick fog, but the Brits were perfecting it long before the US was even sending B17s and B24s over)

I think thats all for now.... so much to discuss on the topic of the air war, and tactics, and the planes involved with different tactics.   The Brits playing defense in the Spits is actually almost an offensive move,  like the "courching Tiger"  in Karate.....    let them attack you,  use your quickness (the spits maunervability) evade and counter attack....

peace 4 now

[dcunning30]

Curtiss LeMay was the general responsible for the B29 forces out of Saipan.  He abandoned the practice of high level bombing to low lever bombing of an altitude of from 5,000 - 10,000 feet.  He also stripped the B29's of defensive armament so they could carry more bombs.  And he abandoned HE bombs for incindiary bombs.

Now, what had happened in Japan was after the factories had been getting bombed out, they disbursed their sub-assembliy manufacturing to surrounding homes.  And these homes were made out fo wood and paper.  LeMay chose to have the B29's go over cities at low level and at night and just bomb the homes.  Granted, many of the homes doubled as manufacturing facilities, but they were still homes, with families.  As a result, the fire bombings of Japanese cities killed far more Japanese *civilians* than both atomic bombs.  To me, that would constitute as a policy that would qualify as a crime against humanity.

Now, the Thatch Weave:

Two American fighters would be flying parallel, but would sissor back and forward criss crossing each other.  If an enemy plane latched on the tail of one plane, when the two American planes began crossing each other, the enemy on the tail of one plane would end up in the gunsights of the other.  Consider it mutual "I got your back" protection.

[james007]

MadTIGermaN I will repond to your inquiring questions tommorow. I have been busy with Family matters and have not been able to repond to your muliple questions at this time.

[dcunning30]

Last but not least do not bring you present day Judgement into past historical events.


James007

Best advice yet.

[dcunning30]

[quote]How is it that the P-38, P-40 (by whatever name you wish to call it), Wildcat, Hellcat and Corsair all have such awesome kill ratios?



Another aspect of WW2's air war that always interested me,

[james007]

Dcunning30 Those are all excellent points. Another point is that a lot of you read about Aviation history is pure fiction.

From the begining this war was plague by propaganda by both sides.

Of course the Japanese where better at it in the sense that their claims where so out rageous that no one in their right mind could believe them.

We where a lot more sofisticated and believable. The propaganda began right at Pearl Harbor and continue right until VE day.

This where the days when we the public believed almost everything our Goverment would tell us.

Like for example when our first ship a destroyer was sunk by the Germans before they declared war on us.

Roosevelt made speach on how the first shot was done by them but the last shot was going to be done by us hopping the public would be so outrage that they would demand a declaration of war against the Germans.

What he did not tell the public was that the destroyer had depth charched the Submarine for a long time before.

The Gorverment also claim that the Japanese had  attacked Pearl Harbor in a sneek attack while we where in a nagociating with them on a peaceful resolution to the Pacific crisis.

In truth was we where expecting them to attack us at any moment since we had broken their diplomatic codes months before and knew they preparing to attack us.

It was our lack of intellegence and  arrogance on our part that  allowed them to  catch us with our pants down more than a Japanese betrayal.

If you read the News Papers of the era at the time of Pearl Harbor. They will gave us the impression that the few planes that where able to takeoff during the attack where more than a match against the Japanese.

That mind set that we where better than the Japanese at ratio of one to Ten was impregnated in our collective mind for the duration of the war.

I was flobogusted when I read Martin Caidin book Fort-Tail Devil:The P38.

In this book he claimed that he was chosen with a group of other writers to write the history of the Fith Airforce.

He was surprise to find many records where lost during the war. He blame it on Japanese air raids on our airbases during the war.

He also wrote that sometimes they would would find bits of  pieces of report and they would put it together with make up storie.

What realy blew me away is that he found nothing wrong with that.

If I remember correctly. I saw a documentary on World  war two called the World at war by the BBC. In the Pacific war installment a saw Marine Instructor telling his new Marine recruits how much better they where than the Japanese. He told them that they where Ten times better than the Dam Japs.

That was just the mentality of those days. Being shot down by Japanese was dam embarrassing.

Being shot down by a Germem was a misfortune, beign shot down by a Japanese was almost a disgrace.

That kind of mentality has only hurt our Pacific Airmen legacy thru the years.

It degraded their effort , bravery and skill that was required of them to achieve victory in the Pacific.

Thats the main reason that now most Simulators are dedicated to the European Theater.

The public impression is that the Pacific air war was relative easy since the Japanese where poorly trained and their planes where inferior to ours.

That has bother me for years. Not for the honor of the Japanese airmen but for Honor of our Aviators.

It took courage, skill and hard work to beat this guys. It was not easy nor did we win every engagement with the enemy from 43 to 45.

The reality was that we had better pilots, leaders and planes and we did win the important Battles.

The fact is also was that we where not ten times better than they where . That mentality has only served to hurt our image of our Piciific fighter pilots.

I could write more obout it but right now I do not have the time.

I will write more on this subject that I"am passionate about at a later date.

If you read this post I want to Thank you.

If you have any comment please write them.

I love this type of Historical discussions.

This is only a Opinion.

James007

[dcunning30]

jammes007,

I agree there was alot of propaganda going on during the war - from both sides.

[dcunning30]

To summarize my point I would say:

It was a matter of which side planned for a lengthy campaign of attrition, and was best able to resupply parts, planes, and most importantly, skilled pilots.


* The Japanese was short sighted in their plans so they didn't plan to a long war.

[james007]

Dcunning30 I agree with with all your points. I understand what your telling me. You do understand what I'am trying to demoastrate or clarifyto you or anybody else who may reading this post.

Have you read this post before?

1.http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-38/44-24845/

2.http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/l ... rling1.asp

Dose it not bother you that the Goverment at that time chose to make Major McGuire misfortune of having been shoot down worthy of top secret status.

It was such a embarasement that they reported

[MadTIGERmaN]

I would say another major factor in the outcome of WW2,  and which also has a direct link to training pilots,  Is the US never had to worry about the enemy flying over its homeland bases.

I just watched a history Channel program on the Flying Tigers.   And near the end,  a Flying Tiger said they had a score of 290 Japense planes shot down,  to only 4 pilots killed in air combat.


Pearl Harbor always annoys me.  Not the whole attack itself, but the way the US has ALWAYS hyped up the 2 P40's that got in the air.  They shot down planes that were low on fuel, low if not out of ammo,  on there way back after they already attacked.  Still kills non the less.... BUT,  the Japs still destroyed the pacific fleet.  And dont even get me started on the pathetic Disney movie made a few years ago.  (I really hate CGI aircraft)

So why is it that the pacific figters are all radial engines pretty much,  well the European fighters are all inline/water cooled?  The top speed wasnt the reason i would assume, as the Corsair was the first to hit 400,  and could keep up with anything.  And the Jug was showing its radial speed off in Europe?  

Thats gettin to be a whole nother topic in its sefl,  best planes of the war.

As for tactics,  ill still stick with the US in the pacific.   Even if they do have propganda inflated kill ratios  

Anyone have the Jap numbers?   or even the US ones.   Would love to see the comparisons.  

[james007]

There is now doubt that we had the better Tactician and leaders in the End.

To say other wise is to bee a lair. Thank God for that.

Lets not forget that the Far East was better off with our Victory than with a Japanese Victory at the time.

Japan is a much better Nation today than it was ever before the war.

I have written this post to get to the truth and Honor our many aviators who flew and died in the vastness of the Pacific, fighting for just cause.

This is just a opinion

James007