....Sorry y'all......

[jcj78]

ts not such a big deal here I guess (I only killed twelve does and no bucks all summer) but my neighbors who farm big acerage (7500+) shot 714 in one field two years ago, and then had to leave em in the field.

Biggest problem is that we've killed off the deer's predators, so they can reproduce unhindered. And so they do. Thus leading to a degradation of the species overall, weaklings surviving, the sick, lame, and lazy...
If we quit killing the predators and accept a very few (very) minor herd losses of "our" cattle and so on, the deer populations will drop dramatically. But until we can convince the farmers of cattle (etc) that wolves and catamounts (cougars if you prefer) are really there for a GOOD purpose, not just to decimate THEIR herd, they will continue, and you neighbors will kill off a few hundred deer each year. And let them rot, for whatever political reason THAT'S being done.

Nope. Deer populations have exploded because they don't have to forage for food in the wild anymore. Every year there is another record grain harvest, and the deer stand in my field and eat my beans and corn and alfafa instead of digging for acorns or hickory nuts. The deer are there because they eat the food I grow to sell. Last year they ate $45 million worth of crops in TN. So I don't feel bad for getting them out of my field.
We have far more predators now than even ten years ago. My grandfather was a fox houndsman. He kept Walker hounds and raced foxes all over "the country" as he called the area where we live. When he started doing this, in the late 40's, there were no deer here. None. About 1965 they released 20 or 30 in the mountains 50 miles south of here, and that's where all the deer here came from. By '68, his dogs were breaking off foxes to chase deer. About '70, the coyotes also came into the area. They pushed the fox out for a while, and whipped Walker hounds. Big coyotes, interbred with the last red wolves. My pawpaw went to Texas and bought dogs to run coyotes. Around the time I was born (1978) the foxes came back. In 1995 we were catching dogs after a race for my pawpaw, who was in his 70's, and my Maw Maw came to the truck white as a sheet and said "I just saw a cat as big as a Walker hound." That was the first bobcat anyone had seen here in even the oldest folk's memory.




Every year I have to call the game warden, he comes out here, looks at my crops, takes photos, estimates the amount of damage and issues me a permit for 30 days. If I need another one at the end of the 30 days, we do it all again.

[H]

I was too lazy to make biscuits, so we had toasted buns and gravy.

You're saying you were shot in the butt for being too lazy to make biscuits? I suppose that would scare the crap out of you...

Sorry, couldn't help myself


As to some of the other post topic: I wasn't happy when our steer were butchered because they'd become like pets to me -- but I ate their beef, anyway. It's also surprising how ignorant some people are. A couple years ago an anti-hunter posted an ad in the local newspaper, "Stop hunting and shooting animals. Get your meat at the supermarket where no animals have been killed."
Well, true... animals aren't killed at most markets -- but they were neither alive (nor dead by natural means) nor in one piece when they arrived there.

[G.K.]

I'll not comment on the OP as I can't say I fully understand the culture. Each to their own.

Perhaps there are a few things worth considering though:

Some folk in the US and UK (and elsewhere no doubt) enjoy killing animals, they do it for pleasure. Over here we have the pro blood sports lobby, those that like to fox hunt are loud and quite powerful. Other hunters who kill stuff for fun justify their actions in all sorts of weird convoluted ways, at the end of the day they are just rationalisations.

There is a difference between a "want" and a "need". In some parts of the world people need to kill animals for food. The majority of western folk are not in that category. Killing animals for food is a "want". Lets not dress it up as something else. I enjoy a bacon butty but I acknowledge the why's and wherefores.

The UK and the US are among the fattest people in the world. Does it matter if some crops are eaten by wild life?

All animals will breed like fury if there is plenty of food (crops or natural). The lack of predators ensures more of the offspring reach maturity. The reason there are so few predators is that we have shot them.

[PhantomTweak]

Deer populations have exploded because they don't have to forage for food in the wild anymore

The lack of predators ensures more of the offspring reach maturity.

Absolutely valid points, no question!

The reason there are so few predators is that we have shot them.

Which is the point I was trying to make.
We move in, kill all the predators, plant crops and grow them more effeciently than "nature" can, with pesticides, fungicides, and you-name-it-cides (a farmer I am most assuredly NOT!), then complain when deer, moles, gophers, etc etc move in to eat what we give them to eat in such large quantities. Then the predators that have managed to survive our pogroms move in to kill all the wonderous new supply of prey items. Unfortunately, they can't tell the difference between "our" tasty animals, goats, cows, chickens, etc etc and their normal, "natural" prey items.
So we start the cycle over, frantically killing the predators off, then having to kill the normal prey items off for them, since THOSE are now overpopulating with no predators and abundant food (provided by us), but we only kill off either randomly, or the biggest and best of the species. The biggest buck, a flood of does (but never "Bambi", or course), every gopher we see, whatever. Exactly opposite of "natural" methods, where predators kill off the weak, lame lazy and so on, so we weaken the species over-all, whereas the predators kill all those, making it stronger, smarter, better, etc. But they're all dead, so no we have to kill all the prey, clear more land, make more crops, making more prey, allowing predators to move in...

And round and round it goes. Where does it stop? Yes, we must kill them off, backwards though we do it, since we have made them overpopulate, and diseases, starvation, etc run rampant. We do it for fun, for protection of crops, whatever. And rightfully so. It's our fault they're the way they are.
But maybe, just maybe, if we start leaving nature to heal it'self, living in concert with it as so many peoples have done through history...
Yes, SOME crops will go to the deer and so on, not many...SOME cows to a cougar, very few...Are these such an immense sacrifice that we cannot support it? We have crops go to waste every year, and I'm certain some animals do too, we accept them as a way of doing business, yet Americans (And probably British) citizens starve to death every day. Accept the others too! Yes, make sure "our" crops, or the larger share are protected, but let the predators have the carcasses. They'll leave "our" animals alone when that well fed! When they begin to recover, the prey population will drop, helping protect our crops. Don't hunt the predators outside "our" areas, leave them be, give them room, and there they shall remain, overall. If one tries to move into one's henhouse, absolutely. It's getting lazy and must go. But generally, leave them some space to roam and hunt, and animals TO hunt, then they will. They don't want to be around us any more than we want them there.

I'm probably saying it most poorly. And it's all just my opinions. I read a lot, watch the Discovery channels a lot. Try to form educated opinions based on all that. I even go so far, though it may not seems so, as to listen (yes I really do!), to farmers, naturalists (science types), Native Peoples traditions...

Sorry, I ramble now. I'll just shut up up on this whole subject, go watch Supernatural, and stick to flight simming! Great flights, fair weather, and a good, well fed life to all!

Pat☺

[jcj78]

I was too lazy to make biscuits, so we had toasted buns and gravy.

You're saying you were shot in the butt for being too lazy to make biscuits? I suppose that would scare the crap out of you...

Sorry, couldn't help myself


As to some of the other post topic: I wasn't happy when our steer were butchered because they'd become like pets to me -- but I ate their beef, anyway. It's also surprising how ignorant some people are. A couple years ago an anti-hunter posted an ad in the local newspaper, "Stop hunting and shooting animals. Get your meat at the supermarket where no animals have been killed."
Well, true... animals aren't killed at most markets -- but they were neither alive (nor dead by natural means) nor in one piece when they arrived there.

8)

I would always cry when the calves went to the slaughterhouse when I was little. But like you said, by the time the burgers were on the grill I was just hungry.

[jcj78]

I'll not comment on the OP as I can't say I fully understand the culture. Each to their own.

Perhaps there are a few things worth considering though:

Some folk in the US and UK (and elsewhere no doubt) enjoy killing animals, they do it for pleasure. Over here we have the pro blood sports lobby, those that like to fox hunt are loud and quite powerful. Other hunters who kill stuff for fun justify their actions in all sorts of weird convoluted ways, at the end of the day they are just rationalisations.

There is a difference between a "want" and a "need". In some parts of the world people need to kill animals for food. The majority of western folk are not in that category. Killing animals for food is a "want". Lets not dress it up as something else. I enjoy a bacon butty but I acknowledge the why's and wherefores.

The UK and the US are among the fattest people in the world. Does it matter if some crops are eaten by wild life?

All animals will breed like fury if there is plenty of food (crops or natural). The lack of predators ensures more of the offspring reach maturity. The reason there are so few predators is that we have shot them.

That's just silly. If there was something to eat, there would be predators. That's how nature works. LIke I already said, we have lots more predators, because we have lots more prey. Anyone who thinks his horse is high because he lets a proxy hit his meat over the head with a hammer should seriously reevaluate himself.

Technically, no one has to eat meat, so all animals are killed for want. Like it or don't, there's blood on your hands. I just don't hire my work out.

[jcj78]

We move in, kill all the predators, plant crops and grow them more effeciently than "nature" can, with pesticides, fungicides, and you-name-it-cides (a farmer I am most assuredly NOT!), then complain when deer, moles, gophers, etc etc move in to eat what we give them to eat in such large quantities. Then the predators that have managed to survive our pogroms move in to kill all the wonderous new supply of prey items. Unfortunately, they can't tell the difference between "our" tasty animals, goats, cows, chickens, etc etc and their normal, "natural" prey items.
So we start the cycle over, frantically killing the predators off, then having to kill the normal prey items off for them, since THOSE are now overpopulating with no predators and abundant food (provided by us), but we only kill off either randomly, or the biggest and best of the species. The biggest buck, a flood of does (but never "Bambi", or course), every gopher we see, whatever. Exactly opposite of "natural" methods, where predators kill off the weak, lame lazy and so on, so we weaken the species over-all, whereas the predators kill all those, making it stronger, smarter, better, etc. But they're all dead, so no we have to kill all the prey, clear more land, make more crops, making more prey, allowing predators to move in...

And round and round it goes. Where does it stop? Yes, we must kill them off, backwards though we do it, since we have made them overpopulate, and diseases, starvation, etc run rampant. We do it for fun, for protection of crops, whatever. And rightfully so. It's our fault they're the way they are.
But maybe, just maybe, if we start leaving nature to heal it'self, living in concert with it as so many peoples have done through history...
Yes, SOME crops will go to the deer and so on, not many...SOME cows to a cougar, very few...Are these such an immense sacrifice that we cannot support it? We have crops go to waste every year, and I'm certain some animals do too, we accept them as a way of doing business, yet Americans (And probably British) citizens starve to death every day. Accept the others too! Yes, make sure "our" crops, or the larger share are protected, but let the predators have the carcasses. They'll leave "our" animals alone when that well fed! When they begin to recover, the prey population will drop, helping protect our crops. Don't hunt the predators outside "our" areas, leave them be, give them room, and there they shall remain, overall. If one tries to move into one's henhouse, absolutely. It's getting lazy and must go. But generally, leave them some space to roam and hunt, and animals TO hunt, then they will. They don't want to be around us any more than we want them there.

I'm probably saying it most poorly. And it's all just my opinions. I read a lot, watch the Discovery channels a lot. Try to form educated opinions based on all that. I even go so far, though it may not seems so, as to listen (yes I really do!), to farmers, naturalists (science types), Native Peoples traditions...

Sorry, I ramble now. I'll just shut up up on this whole subject, go watch Supernatural, and stick to flight simming! Great flights, fair weather, and a good, well fed life to all!

Pat☺

Do you think its natural that there are over 8,000,000,000 naked monkeys on this whirling rock? THAT IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. Somebody got to feed em, and it ain't gonna be nature by herself.[/quote]

[jcj78]

Some folk in the US and UK (and elsewhere no doubt) enjoy killing animals, they do it for pleasure. Over here we have the pro blood sports lobby, those that like to fox hunt are loud and quite powerful. Other hunters who kill stuff for fun justify their actions in all sorts of weird convoluted ways, at the end of the day they are just rationalisations.

I should probably clarify something. When my grandfather raced foxes (or coyotes) with hounds, you didn't kill the quarry. If a dog actually caught the fox and killed it, he would run with a muzzle on from then on. The point wasn't to kill the fox. It was to listen to race, and from what I remember, argue about who's dog was in the lead. "There's Ol' Doc, he's in the lead", my paw paw would say when he heard his favorite hound baying on the race.

The reason there are so few predators is that we have shot them.

Who is this "we"? You already admitted you are too squeamish to shoot much of anything, and so hire someone to do it for you.

[jonboy21075]

Ok i had to butt in here. regardless if you're a health nut, vegan, naturalist or whatever, the practice of hunting and gathering has gone on since before homo sapien was the dominant life form on this planet. our teeth and digestive system make us both an herbivore and carnivore. period. our bodies need veggies and meat. it's how we're built. many, many kudos to the man struggling to provide for the population and provide for his own. he's out there doing what so few want to, and so few can, to produce some of the things all of us take for granted. to suppliment or protect that ability speaks volumes about his integrity and his values. He's not asking for anything. this man provides for you but you never know. yeah, teach those kids how to get what they need if ever they need it. 1 okie sounding off. btw, that breakfast looked yummy.

[jonboy21075]

oh, i thought yuns was an okie thing. thanx for showing me how to spell it

[Anthindelahunt]

Has anyone ever thought that these are living Beings who
have a right to share this world? They have every right to their
existence on spaceship earth. If your life absoutely depends on
murdering a fellow being maybe it is acceptable.

Sorry folks, I find this subject disgusting!

Try living on Veg and Fruit. You will be shocked on how your health improves.

Anthin.

[jcj78]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cp_3le9LaM

It don't really kick in till about 1:00.

Let the rabbits wear glasses.

[G.K.]

That's just silly. If there was something to eat, there would be predators. That's how nature works. LIke I already said, we have lots more predators, because we have lots more prey. Anyone who thinks his horse is high because he lets a proxy hit his meat over the head with a hammer should seriously reevaluate himself.

Technically, no one has to eat meat, so all animals are killed for want. Like it or don't, there's blood on your hands. I just don't hire my work out.


Not Silly. And yes it's how nature works IF humans don't interfere, unfortunately we have. Cougars are returning to Tennessee but they still haven't reached sufficient numbers to have a major impact on deer numbers. Cougars are solitary types, even when abundant their numbers are not high.

The predator that makes the big difference is the Wolf. I don't think they inhabit Tennessee anymore. If they do it's a recent development and there are not many.

Both the Wolf and Cougar were persecuted by humans and as a consequence have been eliminated in many areas of the US. The Wolf is now extinct in the UK, hunted to extinction......When I say "We shot them" I mean the collective we that is the human race. There is a group that want the Wolf reintroduced into Scotland to balance the ecology, I would support that idea.

I eat meat AND I know where it comes from. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know what the score is and who's hands are bloody. Most townies never get the time or opportunity to kill their own meat, slaughter by proxy is the only alternative if they want to eat meat.

I'm sincerely glad to hear that you don't advocate gratuitous killing of animals.

The Wild Boar has made a comeback in the UK not 10 miles from were I'm sitting, and there are folk queuing up to shoot them for fun and to prove themselves, sad but true. I would say to those people: If I seem to be sitting on a high horse it's not because I am taking the moral high ground, it's because you have taken the moral low ground.........

[jcj78]

That's just silly. If there was something to eat, there would be predators. That's how nature works. LIke I already said, we have lots more predators, because we have lots more prey. Anyone who thinks his horse is high because he lets a proxy hit his meat over the head with a hammer should seriously reevaluate himself.

Technically, no one has to eat meat, so all animals are killed for want. Like it or don't, there's blood on your hands. I just don't hire my work out.


Not Silly. And yes it's how nature works IF humans don't interfere, unfortunately we have. Cougars are returning to Tennessee but they still haven't reached sufficient numbers to have a major impact on deer numbers. Cougars are solitary types, even when abundant their numbers are not high.

The predator that makes the big difference is the Wolf. I don't think they inhabit Tennessee anymore. If they do it's a recent development and there are not many.

Both the Wolf and Cougar were persecuted by humans and as a consequence have been eliminated in many areas of the US. The Wolf is now extinct in the UK, hunted to extinction......When I say "We shot them" I mean the collective we that is the human race. There is a group that want the Wolf reintroduced into Scotland to balance the ecology, I would support that idea.

I eat meat AND I know where it comes from. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know what the score is and who's hands are bloody. Most townies never get the time or opportunity to kill their own meat, slaughter by proxy is the only alternative if they want to eat meat.

I'm sincerely glad to hear that you don't advocate gratuitous killing of animals.

The Wild Boar has made a comeback in the UK not 10 miles from were I'm sitting, and there are folk queuing up to shoot them for fun and to prove themselves, sad but true. I would say to those people: If I seem to be sitting on a high horse it's not because I am taking the moral high ground, it's because you have taken the moral low ground.........

You sure do seem to know a lot about what other's people's motivations are. You should start a psychic hotline, or better yet, give the fellas at NATO a call, and put that powerful woman's intuition, or whatever it is you've got going for you to work. I didn't say you seem to be sitting on a high horse. I said you seem to THINK you're sitting on a high horse. There is a big difference. Then again, to a little man, most ANY horse looks high, huh?

Hearing about the wildlife situation here from someone on a different continent is hilarious. I've been to Paris, where they are currently on the lookout for a lynx because the hunters killed all the predators. When's the last time you were in Pigeon Forge?


There are at least two pairs of breeding age cougars on Redstone Arsenal. My buddy is a USDA Animal Health Inspection Service Wildlife Control Officer. He has shown me pics of tracks and spoor and kills. He works out there on the fed land a lot. Sometimes they call him from the fed office and say "We need to know what percentage of breeding age does are pregnant in your area." So he calls me and another guy and says "Let's go see". So we go out to Redstone, or Wheeler Wildlife Refuge (which borders it) and we spotlight a hundred does. However many of em are pregnant, that's the percentage. And after we shoot a hundred does in the head, we leave em laying there. And you could go back to the same place the next night and shoot a hundred more. They are pests. Glorified rats, except rats don't kill the operators of motor vehicles when they collide with them on roadways. They eat billions in crops, driving up the costs of food for consumers, and driving down profit margins for small farmers. Deer are a danger and a nusiance here. Gratuitous? Not at all. Absolutely necessary, and paid for by the tax payer for the good of the public. Shooting pest animals is a public service. You reap the benefits, just like me. I shoot wild pigs with my buddy in Bankhead National Forest. The wild pigs are destroying over two acres a day. If we don't shoot them, there is no National Forest. That belongs to the public. Preserving it from destruction by pest animals is a public service. The game warden meets us there and says "shoot till you're out of shells, boys". And we do.

I'm old enough and experienced enough to know what the score is and who's hands are bloody.


That's good to hear. No need to say thanks, bloke. We're used to pulling our weight and part of yours too, over here on this side of the pond. Its what keeps us hard enough to come bail you out of every scrap you get into with your mean old neighbors.

[OldAirmail]

I've not been keeping up with this post all that much. But I feel the need to toss my two cents into the ring.

I have a number of guns and enjoy target shooting. Never felt the desire to go hunting though.

So naturally, I've known some who do hunt.

And I can say unequivocally that I've never known a hunter who kills for fun.


There are imbeciles who'll stone a dog, or burn cats "for fun". Anyone who does so should be put away until they can't even throw a tantrum.

I would not trust such filth to live anywhere near me.


Forty odd years ago I tried being a vegetarian. Not for the benefit of anthropomorphic animals, but to see if there was indeed any health benefit.

Most of the other veggies were also into "natural" stuff, shunning "artificial" (man made) materials.

How did they justify the leather shoes, belts, purses?

I was too polite to ask, although, from a vegetarian stand point, there was a glairing inappropriateness in their acceptance of leather as "good", plastic "bad".


Want a paradox?

New Jersey is, primarily, an anti-gun state. Very liberal.

Gun ownership has fallen as hunters and other gun owners have fled the state.

So in an attempt to control the deer population Princeton, New Jersey started looking into PAYING sharpshooters to kill the deer.

Princeton and Hopewell look to control deer population

Eleven years ago, before establishing deer hunts, township road crews picked up nearly 350 deer carcasses a year.

“That’s 350 accidents a year,” said Johnson, explaining some of the rationale behind the hunt.

Interesting. They don't mention the number of people injured or killed in those accidents.


So now for two of my favorite internet cartoons.







Sorry for offending anyone.