New Classic jetliner

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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby Hagar » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:41 am

To both Hagar and Ivan:

I'm not demeaning russian language nor alphabet. Far from me. Remember that I'm italian myself and pretty much find my own tongue in the same position russian is. I'm simply bemoaning the shortsightedness of the plane's coders.

I've never tried one of these aircraft so it might have been better if I'd kept out of this. If the aircraft are posted for general use I assume the instructions are in English. If not, it wouldn't take a lot for someone (Ivan perhaps) to translate them for the benefit of the community. Also, I'm sure it would be possible for someone with a basic knowledge of panel design to create Westernised panels for the aircraft. Where there's a will there's a way. ;)

PS. I would also remind you that this is freeware.
Last edited by Hagar on Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby Ivan » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:50 am

To both Hagar and Ivan:

I'm not demeaning russian language nor alphabet. Far from me. Remember that I'm italian myself and pretty much find my own tongue in the same position russian is. I'm simply bemoaning the shortsightedness of the plane's coders.

I've never tried one of these aircraft so it might have been better if I'd kept out of this. If the aircraft are posted for general use I assume the instructions are in English. If not, it wouldn't take a lot for someone (Ivan perhaps) to translate them for the benefit of the community. Also, I'm sure it would be possible for someone with a basic knowledge of panel design to create Westernised panels for the aircraft. Where there's a will there's a way. ;)

PS. I would also remind you that this is freeware.

Most of the more recent releases have english docs and instructions (which are getting better for every release...) Just keep in mind when reading that most of the technical stuff is very hard to translate.

And the best indicator for the success of these addons is the total lack of screenshots of the IGFLY Tu-154M... which is marketed as a realistic simulation but is model and avionics wise a step back compared to Project Tupolev.
Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and [url=http://an24.uw.hu/]An-24RV[/ur
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby cheesegrater » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:19 am

The thing is, most of the Russian aircraft have great English manuals. Like this one.

http://samdimdesign.free.fr/HTML/doc24.html

It all depends if you are willing to learn. For most of the aircraft you can get away with not knowing Cyryllic. However, if you're gonna try to remember what all the switches do in the Project Tupolev 154, it would be probably easier to learn some Cyryllic than try to memorize what everything does.

They could include alternative panel bitmaps with English labels, that wouldn't be hard do to. In the payware Yak-40 you can change from Russian to English with the click of a button.
Last edited by cheesegrater on Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby samdim » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:14 am

We work hard to make simulated planes look like real ones. If one translates a Cyrillic character panel into English it will no longer look real. If we start to deviate from reality by making things that are "easier to use", then why not putting a glass cockpit with GPS into every plane, equip them all with spoilers and thrust reversers, make them all fly stable at any speed.... ?

At the other hand, I understand perfectly that Cyrillic characters scare Western users. Suprunov's Yak-40 has a switch to [temporarily!] change Russian inscriptions into English ones. This is a good technique to adopt. Then, there are English language manuals with translations for every gauge and switch. Tooltips are in English too. Finally, even without knowing the Cyrillic alphabet, you can perfectly pilot a soviet plane. In real life the are no tooltips, however the Tu-134 exported abroad often had "Post-it" flyers sticked next to the Russian inscriptions with translations into the local language, pretty much like tooltips.

Moreover, there is almost no sense to translate a panel into English ! The Russian inscriptions rarely say something comprehensible, most of them are abbreviations. What will you put instead of "[ch1059][ch1043][ch1055][ch1050]" that means Hydro-Semi-Compass Indicator ? HSCI ? Is it clearer ? You'll need anyway to look into the doc. And a "[ch1050][ch1059][ch1057]-1200" on the speedometer means "Course Speed Indicator, limited 1200km/h". Do you really need to put "CSI-1200" to understand this is a speedometer ? Some inscriptions do give indications, like groups of switches. But there are half-a-dozen of them in a panel, you'll quickly memorize them. You don't have to learn the whole Russian language to understand an inscription. You don't have to learn verb conjunction or substantive declination to understand "elektrichestvo" means "electricity". Learning 33 letters is not a hard work, most of them being common to latin and greek alphabets. Anyway, apart from flightsim, learning a language is always a good thing to do.
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby foo_fighter » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:04 am

:) ;)

Samdim is 100% right!
A russian airplane should have a 100% russian panel !
There is no point expecting to have a nice and awesome ruskie plane - said to be real - using western panel and gauges, so, despite my lack of russian understanding (still learning very slowly) I do "eat" the english manual and I'm leraning really fast how to make engines on and the other system, we need to be no lazy nor shame to ready those instructions!

cya! ;)
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby krigl » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:45 am

We work hard to make simulated planes look like real ones. If one translates a Cyrillic character panel into English it will no longer look real. If we start to deviate from reality by making things that are "easier to use", then why not putting a glass cockpit with GPS into every plane, equip them all with spoilers and thrust reversers, make them all fly stable at any speed.... ?

At the other hand, I understand perfectly that Cyrillic characters scare Western users. Suprunov's Yak-40 has a switch to [temporarily!] change Russian inscriptions into English ones. This is a good technique to adopt. Then, there are English language manuals with translations for every gauge and switch. Tooltips are in English too. Finally, even without knowing the Cyrillic alphabet, you can perfectly pilot a soviet plane. In real life the are no tooltips, however the Tu-134 exported abroad often had "Post-it" flyers sticked next to the Russian inscriptions with translations into the local language, pretty much like tooltips.

Moreover, there is almost no sense to translate a panel into English ! The Russian inscriptions rarely say something comprehensible, most of them are abbreviations. What will you put instead of "[ch1059][ch1043][ch1055][ch1050]" that means Hydro-Semi-Compass Indicator ? HSCI ? Is it clearer ? You'll need anyway to look into the doc. And a "[ch1050][ch1059][ch1057]-1200" on the speedometer means "Course Speed Indicator, limited 1200km/h". Do you really need to put "CSI-1200" to understand this is a speedometer ? Some inscriptions do give indications, like groups of switches. But there are half-a-dozen of them in a panel, you'll quickly memorize them. You don't have to learn the whole Russian language to understand an inscription. You don't have to learn verb conjunction or substantive declination to understand "elektrichestvo" means "electricity". Learning 33 letters is not a hard work, most of them being common to latin and greek alphabets. Anyway, apart from flightsim, learning a language is always a good thing to do.


Samdim, can I just say that your An-24 totally rocks?

Well, now that's out the way I must say I agree with you on the language thing. Hundreds of millions of people speak Russian anyway, and expecting Russian panels translated into English is just the same as expecting all English panels to have Russian ones available. Serious flyers who want to get to know the systems inside out (not me, though) will put in the spade work to learn the Russian inscriptions. My problem with all these uber-realistic planes is the deliberate decision often made to FORCE casual simmers to learn how to start the aircraft properly by removing the ctrl-e start up function. I don't understand what is wrong with letting casual simmers, which today form probably the majority, start the aircraft simply and fly it around enjoying the awesome exterior model, sound pack and virtual cockpit eye candy, without going through a 15 minute orgy of checklists and switch clicking. I love 'flying' planes into which a lot of development time has been invested but I simply don't have time to learn the ins and outs of every virtual plane in my hangar - I fly mainly for relaxation and taking screenshots. This 'no ctrl-e' policy smells of elitism and snobbery, IMHO, even if it's not meant that way. Just my 2 kopecks  ;)
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby ATI_7500 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:30 am

I don't care much about the non-working CTRL+E things, as long as a comprehensible manual gets delivered with the plane which explains the systems and the procedures necessary for flying the thing properly.



P.S: Dimitry (sorry for possible spelling errors), I find it sad that you don't put VCs into your freeware models anymore. Since I'm a "VC only" flyer, this sadly makes actually great models like the Tu-124, An-148 and IL-86 uninteresting for me.
I really liked your An-24 for its awesome VC.

But you're the modeler, you decide what you do and what you don't do.

Do Swidanya (spelling...I know...)
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby samdim » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:16 am

Translating a panel into English is not a language problem for Russian developers. Nor for Russian simmers. The panels are in Cyrillic because they are in Cyrillic in real life. I admit that those panels are not intended for beginner-level simmers. We assume this choice. There are so many low quality models (and even payware add-ons) on the market that justify their lack of development by putting a label "good for non-hardcore simmers". Beginners can't complain - they get any model they want.
We try to respond to a demand for higher quality and deeper system programming add-ons. We loose beginners among our customers but at least we are not ashamed for our production.

I don't understand why do you complain about the start-up ? Both An-24 and Tu-124 do start up with CTRL+E shortkey.

As for the VC, see my post in the FFDS forum:
http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yab ... 399328/5#5
In few words: freeware = no VC, payware = VC

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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby krigl » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:25 am


I don't understand why do you complain about the start-up ? Both An-24 and Tu-124 do start up with CTRL+E shortkey.

Dimitri


Ahh... haven't flown the An-24 for a while... sorry!
Must have confused it with some of the other one's I've had trouble keeping in the air.  :)

It wasn't a complaint aimed at you in particular anyway, Samdim, just a general moan I should have kept to myself.
Well, sorry to have trod on your toes! And I look forward to trying out the Tu-124 when I get a moment!

Regards

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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby ATI_7500 » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:38 am

As for the VC, see my post in the FFDS forum:
http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yab ... 399328/5#5
In few words: freeware = no VC, payware = VC


I figured that from your home page.
Can't blame you if you don't like to do VCs.

Sad 'though, especially since Microsoft shifted the balance towards VCs in FSX.
I just wished they got rid of 2D panel support entirely.
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby Travis » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:41 pm

I just wished they got rid of 2D panel support entirely.


If they did that, they'd lose just as many or more designers and users than if they did away with VCs, or any other part of the sim.  Its a balance that must be maintained, although you are entirely correct in saying they paid more attention to the VCs in FSX than they did previously.  But of course that was inevitable, as its a new innovation, relatively speaking.
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Re: New Classic jetliner

Postby ATI_7500 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:35 am

But of course that was inevitable, as its a new innovation, relatively speaking.


Yeah. I hope that more people will use VCs in future.
Everytime I see a well modeled aircraft getting released without a VC, I'm screaming "Don't you know what you're gonna miss, you idiots?" in my mind.
If I'm ever gonna make a model for FS, it'll be VC only...just as a satisfying payback.
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