Flying in Hungary today

[Omag 2.0]

Chilly looking series! I just love the sound of that engine...

[ATI_7500]

eing that they lost the war, badly, i'd say that those statements are irrelevant. Britain and America clearly had better aircraft and pilots.

Russia won the war because they had a big country and millions of men. The other alliies won, because they had territorial advantages and because Germany had practically two fronts (two and a half from 43 on).

It's like tigers and elephants. An tiger alone doesn't stand a chance (if the elephant has the first attack -> trampled), but a group of tigers can easily kill an elephant,since it would have to split its awareness and force.

And I seriously doubt that aliied aircraft and pilots were better than their axis counterparts. The highest scoring alliied ace was a Russian (~90 victories), while the best scoring british/american pilots had just about 40 victories.

I think a duel is in order here.  You guys need to get in the zone and settle this!

To quote Cartman (South Park):
We're ramboing it out! I'm first.

[Ivan]

And I seriously doubt that aliied aircraft and pilots were better than their axis counterparts. The highest scoring alliied ace was a Russian (~90 victories), while the best scoring british/american pilots had just about 40 victories.  

That has something to do with the way the combat went.
Brits and Americans did the fighting on the altitudes the german machines were built for, while the russians forced them to altitudes where their own planes performed better. Russia never made a real high-altitude fighter (like the pointy wing spitfires) until halfway the war.

[jordonj]

Russia won the war because they had a big country and millions of men. The other alliies won, because they had territorial advantages and because Germany had practically two fronts (two and a half from 43 on).

It also helps that Hitler made some pretty poor tactical choices.  I remember hearing that he relied on advice from an astrologer...he followed this advice and left Normandy not nearly as defended as he should have (anyone correct me if I'm wrong).  He also left his troops ill-prepared for the harsh Russian winters.


Wasn't there an assasination plot on Hitler by his own party?

This may only be Nationalist narcisism speaking, but didn't America's entering the war also change things...Yamato I belive said : "I fear that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant...with a terrible resolve"

[ATI_7500]

It also helps that Hitler made some pretty poor tactical choices.  I remember hearing that he relied on advice from an astrologer...he followed this advice and left Normandy not nearly as defended as he should have (anyone correct me if I'm wrong).  

Wrong. Hitler was a fanatic and didn't realize that he should change his tactics or that his army wasn't numerically strong enough to hold foot in Russia. When he became commander of the Wehrmacht, he ordered his troops to defend every inch of ground until the end - just like in WW1 in which he took part. But since you cant hold a front line that large with only two millions of men, the red army slowly began to break through. The war might have lasted longer if he had left commandment to his generals.
His first real strategical mistake was leaving the RAF intact and leaving Britain uninvaded. He could have achieved a successful invasion in 1940,but he preferred to weaken Britain tactically (RAF) and moralically (Coventry,London,etc...) to force peace talks up on them and to get them on his side.

As for the Normandy: The Germans didn't expect this region to be the main allied invasion area. So they just fortified the region around Calais. The day the invasion took place, the german commander of the Wehrmacht in France tried to talk to Hitler. His assistant denied the request by saying that the 'F

[jordonj]

Yes,that's true,but most german pilots did quite well in the low-level air combats. Might have been caused by the poorly trained russian opponents.

I don't know how historically accurate Call of Duty is, but in the Russian part of the game, you go in without any ammo...maybe pilots were pushed into planes for which they were ill-prepared?

It's amazing how much better we could have done had our leaders the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight...though I hope we would not have let it come to WWII in the first place...

[ATI_7500]

I don't know how historically accurate Call of Duty is, but in the Russian part of the game, you go in without any ammo...maybe pilots were pushed into planes for which they were ill-prepared?

I can't comment on that,since I don't trust computer games or movies when it comes to historical accurateness. The only true source for information is books written by people who have been there or history experts.

[Scorpiоn]

Games are games.  Facts are facts.  Period.  If they happen to agree with each other, so be it.

Well said Exploder, although I have to disagree just a bit.  As I understand it, Barbarossa failed mainly for lack of co-operation from Hitler's Generals and the muliple fronts.  If Hitler had managed to acquire a cease fire with Britain, (which wouldn't have been too far fetched, as I have come to understand from the many debates here on Simviation) and his Generals actually had listened to him, the greater Eurasian continent might be speaking German.  People have a tendency to forget the time between initial German success and that of the Soviets'.  With the state of the Red Army in the winter of 1941, I'd pin the utmost blame on the failure of Germany at large to allow troops R&R, and instead always pushing those last 100 yards.  This is especially apparent in the mad rush to capture Moscow.

[xFLAMESx]

Back to the topic,

Mark : Great shots, BTW, that old lady, 'twas my nan

Cheers,

Carl

[ATI_7500]

Well put Scorp,but the other way 'round. Hitler's gernerals were far more competent than he, but he, in his fanatism didn't listen to them.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Lets not forget here, that the Germans had a target rich environment in both fronts, since they were on the defensive they saw a lot more bombers than the allies did, thus, they had more targets- big targets too.
Lets also remember that the Luftwaffe Experten were kept on the front line for as long as possible and the only way for some 2nd line rest in the Luftwaffe was for the war to end or you to die.
We see that the RAF circulated its squadrons more regularly and thus they did not see as many aircraft as the Germans did.
On the Eastern Front we see a mass of largely unskilled Russian pilots with minimal training (pull trigger, bullets fire, dont worry about landing cos it may never happen.)
Thus, the Germans, with their superior machines and guns and pilots were able to inflicte losses on personal levels, as well as tactical ones...
Therefore we see that German pilots on the whole are not a superior group of airmen from the Allied airmen, they were just presented with more oppourtunity.

A.

[jordonj]

Back to the subject...where can that plane be found, and does it have a VC?

[ATI_7500]

Therefore we see that German pilots on the whole are not a superior group of airmen from the Allied airmen, they were just presented with more oppourtunity.

More experience = more skill.

Furthermore, pilots like H.J. Marseille trained very hard between their sorties, just to become something like the snipers of the sky.


Jordon, the Fw-190 is a t flightsim, but the VC ain't that good.