Dambusters Flying Torpedo

[Paddy_Payne]

Now then, here's a crack-pot posting to amuse you all.  

This Friday (16th) sees the 60th anniversary of the famous Dambusters Raid.  I've long been fascinated by that 617 Sqd. mission and thanks to the "Dambusters" add-on for CFS2 and a recent TV documentary my admiration for the flying skills involved has increased enormously.

This set me wondering what other type of weapon they could have used, assuming Barnes Wallis never came up with the 'bouncing bomb' idea.  The concept I came up with is what you might call a rocket-propelled, wire-guided, aerial torpedo,   having visual similarities to the German V-1 Flying Bomb.

The idea is that this device would be released at low level - though not nearly as low as the actual mission - say 200ft or so, and at a greater distance from the dam: maybe 1/2 mile.  This would allow the weapon to clear the aircraft safely before the rocket(s) would ignite.  As the device overtook its carrier aircraft it would unreel a guidance wire attached to its tail from the bomb-bay, through which steering commands would be sent electrically by the bomb-aimer.  It could thus be skimmed over the dam's anti-torpedo nets, entering the water to act as a 'conventional' torpedo, or aimed directly at the structure's water-line.  Once several devices had been placed like this, they could all be detonated simultaneously by radio-wave for maximum explosive effect.

Now, this is where you guys come in.  The tools exist out there with which to create such a (simulated) weapon, marry it up with the "Dambusters" add-on, and see if the flamin' thing would have actually worked (all based on 1940's technology of course).  Unfortunately, I don't have the computer skills to do this myself, but I'm wondering if some of you other 617/Dambusters fans might be up to the job and keen enough to give it a try?  I think it would make for an interesting - and challenging - excercise.  Whaddaya think?  Any takers?  

Chocks away!

Paddy Payne  8)

Thought For Today: If bombs were meant to bounce they'd be made of rubber.

[Tequila Sunrise]

doubt it would work as the reason the real attacks worked was the pressure wall behind the explosion at the base of the damn, might be usefull for harbour attacks though

[Paddy_Payne]

Thanks, Craig.  You're quite right about the water pressure being integral to the operation ... but like I explained, I had envisioned these devices striking the dam wall then sinking to the base, to be detonated remotely when enough had been 'seeded' in the right place.  The Germans developed a 'glider bomb' towards the end of the war on a similar principal, though it wasn't wire-guided.  I think it was used operationally at least once, but I'm not sure.

Any other 'boffins' got alternative ideas - and can they be made a PC reality?

Paddy Payne

[Woodlouse2002]

Its a great idea but unfortunatly it would not work in CFS2. CFS2 does not support guided weapons and so it would really be out of the question.

Also I seem to remeber this german weapon that was a rocket powered bouncing bomb. That would be nice to see...

[HawkerTempest5]

Also I seem to remeber this german weapon that was a rocket powered bouncing bomb. That would be nice to see...

The Germans did build a rocket powered bouncing bomb for use against shipping. They also designed and used the "Fritz X" radio guided missile and it was used to sink a couple of Italian battleships later in the war.

Paddy, have you tried to breach the dams using a Grand Slam? This was Barns Wallis' original idea for busting the dams.

[Paddy_Payne]

Hello Tempest Mk.V (or can I call you Hawker?)

Nope, haven't tried the Grand Slam yet, but I fully intend to.  In fact, I haven't even dropped Upkeep 'in anger' yet.  My intention was - much like the TV documentary - to give myself a similar amount of 'training time' before flying the real-time simulated mission on the anniversary of the real attack (which by my watch only leaves me about 24-hrs: gulp!).

My hat goes off to those who flew the real mission - it's difficult enough in the simulated version.  The TV programme was fascinating, but they had a full crew of seven.  I'll be making my attack alone, having to fly to a precise speed and altitude, aiming and releasing Upkeep at a pre-determined distance, while taking a pop at the flak-towers as the front gunner.  What's required here is to clone a PC pilot/gamer with an octopus!

Thanks also to Woodlouse2000 (or can I call you Woody?) for the info' on CFS2.  Ah, well, back to the drawing board, eh?  I've got this other great idea though.  First, you plonk a single atom on a chopping board, right, then you get hold of a bloody big axe and ...  :-/

Chocks away, chums!  Time to give Harry Hun a jolly good pasting 'sausage side', then back home for tea and medals.

Paddy Payne

[HawkerTempest5]

[quote]Hello Tempest Mk.V (or can I call you Hawker?)

Nope, haven't tried the Grand Slam yet, but I fully intend to.

[Woodlouse2002]

Good luck with your attack Paddy. I managed to breech the dam first time and I can tell you this. You don't have to be accurate. By all means and purposes I should have missed by several miles. I was too high too fast and off to the left... But I still hit it!!!

And a word of advice, watch out for pylons. You cannot go under them so don't even try... The flak gets thick but low flying should get you through... Oh and warp when it tells you too. Its the only way to complete the mission.

P.s. Course you can call me Woody. Everybody else does... Except Ozzy who calls me Woodie and the occasional American who calls me Woodhouse for some inexplicable reason...

Anyway, good luck with the mission.

[Paddy_Payne]

Hi Woody and Hawker!

Thanks for the encouragement, lads, it's appreciated.  I've had to postpone the mission until the evening of the 18th due to urgent squadron business (ie; drinking beer and chasing women), but I promise you a full post-op' breifing.

On the topic of 'bouncing bombs' ... I'm sure you already know there was a smaller version of Upkeep, code-named Highball, designed specifically for anti-shipping strikes (with a special Mosquito squadron - 618 - formed to use it).  If enough of us write to JustFlight, d'you think they'd maybe produce a simulated version?

Have either of you tried JustFlight's "Mosquito Squadron"?  Any good - and does it include the Amiens Prison attack (Operation Jericho)?

Well ... time for one more practice hop before the 'big' one.

Cheerio!

Paddy Payne

QUOTE OF THE DAY:  (Aussie accent). "This is bloody dangerous!"

[HawkerTempest5]

[quote]

[Paddy_Payne]

POST-OP' REPORT FOR WOODY, HAWKER AND ANYONE ELSE (AND HIS DOG) WHO'S INTERESTED.

First of all a warning for all first time Mohne Dam fliers: don't be so engrossed by the sight of seven other Lancs' following you out of Scampton against the setting sun that you inadvertantly fly into the deck whilst looking backwards (Ooops!).

OK.  Left Scampton at 1,000ft, descending to 500ft at the coast then down to 100ft over the sea.  Nice to hear the nav' giving course to steer at WP1 (pity he sounded less like a young airman and more like a middle-aged train-spotter).  'Flying' in a darkened room wearing head-phones made it all even more immersive - when we crossed the 'enemy coast' I swear the hairs on the back of my neck stood up.  

Things got a bit hairy at WP2.  Flak was so thick I could have got out and walked on it, but searchlights hadn't a clue.  Then I saw the pylons.  I know Woody said you couldn't go under them - but I did!  Don't know how I did it (sheer panic I think).  We lost one of the boys here to flak, saw him go in - horrible.

Heading east for the German border I was off track to starboard but just followed a long straight road (canal?) until a T-junction then eased to port to get back on route.  More pylons at next WP (went over this time).  Lost another two kites at WP5 (or was it 6?).  Nerve-wracking situation made worse by some prat who sounded like a ruddy undertaker, intoning "defend yourselves" every time the flak got bad - as if we needed telling (as if we could do anything anyway with gun turrets you could't move!).  

Got to the "press X to continue" point, then it was the dam.  No problem really, as the obligatory warp sets you up perfectly for the run-in to target.  Even so, what with juggling various keys to get the proper bomb-aimer view (with the aid of a pen light clenched between my teeth) I ended up a bit too high and too fast.  Anyhow, up came the towers on the dam - flak not as bad as I'd expected - and at the appropriate (approximate) moment I pressed the tit.  "Bomb gone, skipper!".  A few moments later came a God-almighty flash and explosion and someone yelled, "it's gone!".  

By this time I was reduced to a wet rag with my eyeballs out on stalks - and I still had to get us home to Blighty.  All I can say is, it's a bloody long way to the Fatherland when you're flying in real-time, even with the help of 'George' .... but with luck (and a flask of strong tea) we made it.

Joking aside, flying this simulation has only increased my admiration for the blokes who had to do it for real.  The sheer concentration involved in keeping on track and not flying into the ground must have been a tremendous strain on them - and when you add to that the fact of being shot at as well ... they must have been fuelled on pure adrenalin.

Now for the bad news.  The following evening I decided to have another crack at the Mohne to see if I could fly a more accurate bomb run.  I cheated by warping all the way from Scamptom to the Mohne (I'm not that much of a masochist) and started the run.  In the heat of the moment I forgot to 'select' Upkeep, so when I pressed the release button nothing happened.  Imagine my surprise then when I got the previous night's flash and explosion and crew confirmation that the dam had 'gone'.  I thought this might be a fluke, so I re-set everything and tried again, this time deliberately not dropping the bomb.  Same result.  

Don't know how you guys feel, but that spoiled the whole package for me.  It made a mockery of all those 'training flights' I made over the Derwent, trying to achieve that precise height and speed profile.  Worse than that - I'm sure some people will assume from flying the sim' that the real thing must have been easy too - and that's bloody unforgiveable in my book.  Well, I suppose I mustn't take these things too seriously - it's only a game (so they tell me).  

Hawker, please tell me more about those Gryphon Mosquitoes. The 'mossie' is one of my all time favourites, but I've yet to find one that looks and sounds really accurate.

Cheers!

Andy
(a.k.a.  S/Ldr Paddy Payne  8) - RAF fighter ace and all round good egg from the 'Lion' comic of the 1960s)

[HawkerTempest5]

Afternoon Paddy. Godd mission report there pal. Can't say I've had the breached dam without bomb thing happen to me, but I must admit I've spent more time dropping Grand Slams on things than bouncing bombs. I'll give it a go this week and see what happens. It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has had this happen.
The Gryphon Mossies have been about for ages now, but are still about the best overall out there. You get four planes in the package, Bomber, Fighter bomber with and without invasion stripes and night fighter. (Check out raw screen shots, JU 88 lone raider for a few good shots of the NF MkII Mossie that I've just posted.)
Comes with everything including a sound package weapons and stuff, but I have a superb Merlin sound set so I always use this to replace the default sounds with. The whole thing is a download of about 8 meg and it is in the SimV CFS2 download section (can't remember what page, but start at oldes and work through, you'll find them.) There were some new GMAX mossies posted to the CFS2 upload section recently, but I don't think they are as good as the Gryphon models. Check them out and see what you think.
Cheers Paddy pal,
Hawker.

[Woodlouse2002]

Congratulations on completing the raid paddy. I glad that you can fly under the pylons. Needless to say I crashed into a wall of nothing about 3 times while attempting it. Shame to hear about the dam breaching thing. I really though I had busted it.

And get the Gryphon Mossies. There great (to take the phrase of a well knowen tiger...).

[michaelmichael]

hello chaps

your banter about the dambuster mission sounds interesting  where can i get the addon for it??? also can you tell me where i can get the gryphon Mossie

thanks heaps

michaelmichael

[HawkerTempest5]

Hi there Michael,
The Dambusters add on is payware and it's from Just Flight. Costs about