Concorde: What did YOU think?

[ThomasKaira]

Long time no see, gents, now you know I'm not dead.

Anyways, my latest addition to my collection of aircraft was the superb SSTSIM Concorde. After a rocky start, I am now experienced enough in the simulation to fly her on any of her old routes. I am not here to brag, however, I am here to ask you a question.

The only supersonic transport to ever have been used economically (yes I am aware of the TU-144, but she never truely entered service) has long since been retired, and many consider this a huge step backwards in aviation, but there were many reasons, and the crash only played a small part in the whole story. Here are the rest, in order of importance:

1: She cost too much to operate, she used the same amount of fuel as a 747 on a transatlantic trip, but only carried 1/3 of the passengers the 747 could.

2: The noise. Oh my god, she will rip your ears to shreds... We here in the US were very sceptical about allowing her to fly here for the longest time for that very reason.

3: Her age was catching up with her. It was getting more and more difficult to maintain her, as with growing age comes more problems.

4: The crash. Yup, it had to come, but it was not the safety issues we are concerned with here, it is how much it cost to revamp her.

5: September 11th. The effects were felt worldwide, in the form of a significant drop in the popularity air travel.

Don't listen to the political junkies blaming the US for its demise, OR the conspiracy theorists claiming Air France crashed Concorde delibirately, the reasons for retirement were purely economic from where I stand.

Now, the point of this topic is, I want to know about what you thought of her. What was your experience? If you flew on her, how did it feel?

Thanks in advance.

JET

[Ashar]

Well, the thing about the Concorde project was that no aircraft were built later on...The 747 has been around for quite some time too, but newer airframes are always being built with modern electronic equipment and such...AFAIK, this was not the case with the Concorde which continued to run on older systems. Had EADS continued to manufacture the Concorde, it may have upgraded it with more modern avionics and such.

As for the crash, 737's have crashed god knows how many times, yet they continue to be the best selling aircraft...IMO, for reasons unknown to me, the crash only helped anti-Concorde folk get rid of it...How many 737 fleets have been grounded due to crashes? Apart from a few aircraft every now and then, the model continues to fly...

I'm getting ticked...I need to go for a smoke...Later

[Ivan]

September 11th. The effects were felt worldwide, in the form of a significant drop in the popularity air travel.

AND

She cost too much to operate, she used the same amount of fuel as a 747 on a transatlantic trip, but only carried 1/3 of the passengers the 747 could.

They never flew it break-even (with $10k for a single-trip ticket), but the businesspeople loved it (get from london to NYC on the morning flight, do company meeting, fly back in the evening... instead of losing 3 days for a meeting overseas). BA and AF got a load of complaints from corporate europe when they decided to stop the Concorde, and the business travel thing was the main reason for mr Branson to try to buy the fleet

Her age was catching up with her. It was getting more and more difficult to maintain her, as with growing age comes more problems

Might be a reason... the engines were kind of a one-off when RAF put the vulcan out of active service. Rest of the airframe was ok though

The 747 has been around for quite some time too, but newer airframes are always being built with modern electronic equipment and such...AFAIK, this was not the case with the Concorde which continued to run on older systems. Had EADS continued to manufacture the Concorde, it may have upgraded it with more modern avionics and such.

Ever seen the order listl... almost every big name in the industry had a few on order in the late 60s... most were cancelled after 1973 though

[BFMF]

While in Seattle visiting some relatives A few months ago, I went and visited the Museaum of Flight at Boeing Field. I got to walk through their Concorde, and photograph it. It was a little smaller than I expected...

[Mictheslik]

I watched her come into Filton on the 23rd November 2003......a sad day

I don't want to stir up any political arguments, but the major reason Concorde was never widely produced was the argument with the American authorities about landing permissins due to noise. Therefore, the noise of her engines was indirectly to blame aswell.....

All I can say is that It's very sad there isn't at least one flying example today.

List of airframes visited by me ;

East Fortune      G-BOAA
Heathrow          G-BOAB
Manchester       G-BOAC
Filton               G-BOAF
Yeovilton         002 (second prototype)
Duxford              101

.mic

[ozzy72]

Mic haven't you been to Duxford?

[Mictheslik]

Mic haven't you been to Duxford?

Oh yes...forgot about 101......though I've only actually seen her once, and that was because the mass spit flypast at the end of the 2006 spitfire show was cancelled due to high winds and I had an hour to wander around Airspace

.mic

[Tom...]

I used to see BA ones fly over every day at my old house, i think they were amazing machines, and bloody noisy, the teachers in my school just gave up talking when they flew over, you couldnt hear anything except the noise of the engines...truly amazing 8-)

[Xyn_Air]

You know, going back to original question (I think . . .  :-? ) as to why the Concorde went out of service:

Well, this is what happens to all aircraft sooner or later.  I know that may sound a little flippant, but it is true.  There are, of course, factors that affect the longevity of any given model.  But, eventually newer aircraft come in to replace the old as the paradigms of commercial air travel change.  Sometime even without new aircraft to replace them, older aircraft simply fall into disuse because of a lack of demand for what they once did.

The points mentioned in previous comments, everything from cost, to noise, to aging technology versus speed, popularity with business passengers, and numbers of aircraft orders, all played a part in the use and disuse of the Concorde.  You can see the same thing happening with the 747 (which was also mentioned above somewhere).  While still in service, many 747's are being phased from passenger service to cargo service.  Eventually, even those cargo aircraft will be phased out of use as the parameters of commercial aviation change.

It all boils down to demand, really.  Is an aircraft, given all the variables mentioned above and more, the most suitable and efficient aircraft to meet the demand it is trying to fulfill?  Eventually for the Concorde, either the demand was not great enough for what the Concorde could do, or the Concorde could not do enough to meet the demand it was trying to fulfill.

Whether she is still used or not, I think we can all agree the Concorde was a truly remarkable accomplishment of aviation technology, and our world was made all the more fascinating because of the Concorde . . . and all the planes before and since and yet to come.  ;)

With philosophical rambling,
~Darrin

[an-225]

I have seen Concorde once - and that was a truly special time. Around 1997 to 1999, Concorde came to Sydney, Australia. Not as loud as people make it out to be. The concept was good, and it worked. Why is it that Boeing 747s, DC-3s, J-3 Cubs, C-130s, B-52s etc. are all in service today?

They are built on a solid concept, and have undergone many refurbishments and the like. Concorde, was built on a concept which was sketchy at best. SST. Today, we have done enough research to  understand SST better (in this context, supersonic travel), and the framework for the concept is there. With a few upgrades, it may be fine to enter service once more. Quieter, efficient engines, while delivering almost as much power, glass cockpit, digital fly-by-wire, etc.

Edit: Not to mention, the gases that its "current" engines, Rolls Royce Olympus produced, replenished the ozone (in minute amounts...).

[chornedsnorkack]

I have seen Concorde once - and that was a truly special time. Around 1997 to 1999, Concorde came to Sydney, Australia. Not as loud as people make it out to be. The concept was good, and it worked. Why is it that Boeing 747s, DC-3s, J-3 Cubs, C-130s, B-52s etc. are all in service today?

They are built on a solid concept, and have undergone many refurbishments and the like. Concorde, was built on a concept which was sketchy at best. SST. Today, we have done enough research to  understand SST better (in this context, supersonic travel), and the framework for the concept is there. With a few upgrades, it may be fine to enter service once more. Quieter, efficient engines, while delivering almost as much power, glass cockpit, digital fly-by-wire, etc.

Back in 1960-s, subsonic jets wasted fuel to make noise. Concorde jets really did what they should do.

High-bypass turbofans were both quieter and more efficient. But you cannot do the same with Concorde, simply because you need low or no  bypass to make supersonic flight work!

[C]

4: The crash. Yup, it had to come, but it was not the safety issues we are concerned with here, it is how much it cost to revamp her.

That would be number one for me.

Concorde spent most of its life relying on romance, prestige, exclusivity and an unblemished reputation - people would their savings for a once in a lifetime trip; even subsonic ones. When it ran over that little piece of DC-10, that was the beginning of the end. Had that accident not happened there would not have been the costly grounding and upgrades, no negative publicity, and an intact reputation with no interuption. Having said that, I think it would certainly be entering the twilight year of service.    

[ThomasKaira]

Well, I'm glad the internet as at least one discussion that isn't all about the Amero-French atred for one another and uncalled for political mudslinging.

[Slotback]

Probably the best aircraft of the 20th century! And that's coming from a Boeing fan.

Well, the thing about the Concorde project was that no aircraft were built later on...The 747 has been around for quite some time too, but newer airframes are always being built with modern electronic equipment and such...AFAIK, this was not the case with the Concorde which continued to run on older systems. Had EADS continued to manufacture the Concorde, it may have upgraded it with more modern avionics and such.

As for the crash, 737's have crashed god knows how many times, yet they continue to be the best selling aircraft...IMO, for reasons unknown to me, the crash only helped anti-Concorde folk get rid of it...How many 737 fleets have been grounded due to crashes? Apart from a few aircraft every now and then, the model continues to fly...

I'm getting ticked...I need to go for a smoke...Later

It's a bigger deal when one in 15 planes crash than when ten in 5000 planes crash.

[pepper_airborne]

It's a bigger deal when one in 15 planes crash than when ten in 5000 planes crash.

Well, one out of 15 could be tough luck, 10 out of 5 thousand could mean a structural failure somewhere.

T' was a beautifull plane and served its purpose, i wonder if there ever will be a sucessor.