Remember When . . ??

[Hagar]

[quote]Second is there has been a very real degredation in parenting beginning in the 50's and 60's, most notably the adoption of the teachings of Dr. Spock, which can be objectively viewed in the crime data for adolescents reaching maturity after those upbringings.

[Romulus111VADT]

The reason I post topics like this is simple. I'm completely in shock how American children are for the most part are in today's society. I mean instead of a fist fight, they're shot or stabbed. The slightest bit of negativity towards someone can result in a cycle of attacks and then the revenge factor.

Society has gone mad and children are not allowed to be children anymore. Like when a 6 year old child is suspended pending a criminal investigation for sexual assault for kissing a girl he liked. Or the 9 year old that is expelled for bringing cough medicine to school because they have a "zero tolerance" policy towards drugs. Or the 11 year old girl suspended for possession of a "nail file".

Over protective parents are cited for child abuse for mental anguish because they wouldn't allow their child to do something. Then when they allow it, the parents are held criminally liable for anything the child did wrong or if the child is injured/killed by their own zealous desire to have their way. Loving parents are almost always "suspected" of sexual abuse. Hands off parents are suspected of child neglect.

I'm sick of the double standards used in today's society. As in a straight couple that were arrested for holding hands and kissing in public. But God don't complain about same sex couples doing the exact same thing. It was a same sex couple that filed the compliant....they were "offended".

Or another couple that were horsing around and the husband was arrested for spousal abuse. Even though the woman refused to press charges, the state pursued it and put the man in jail. Then proceeded on a 6 year vendetta against the man in the court system, costing him thousands of dollars, the loss of his job and labeling him as an abusive husband. Even though his wife protested it the entire time and defended him. After 6 years and countless 10's of thousands of dollars.....the state dropped the case.....put the couple into bankruptcy and then refused to help them. All this because some old busy body had to call the cops.

[Hagar]

Well said Rommie. I have no place to talk as I fondly look back on my youth. However, I think it's a mistake to dwell too much in the past. Yes, there's plenty of things wrong with our modern society but then I'm sure there always were. At least we both live in a free country. If we don't like it we can try to do something about it or encourage others to do so.

I was born in the south of England during WWII & there couldn't have been much harder times in my country than those days. We were right in the middle of the likely invasion area if it had taken place & I remember my Grandma telling me I screamed in her ear when a doodlebug flew low overhead when I was just a babe in arms. People came through it as they always do & always will. There's always plenty worse off than us. Children adapt to these situations & cope better than adults as they don't know any different.

[Saitek]

Life today is shocking. I'm certainly believe it is worse  - statistics plainly tell the story. But the question is why? WHY? WHY? WHY?
I've noticed differences since I was younger in society, I assure myself things will be MUCH worse in ten years time too. I ask: WHY?
I reckon its the violence on TV and no teaching of responsibility and basic standards in schools which are partly to blame.
But then I'm only a youth with no experience. I should be a backbencher and let age speak wisdom.

Ben

[Hagar]

Ben. A little word in your shell-like lug'ole. You've always seemed to me to be a thoughtful, caring & sensible young man, maybe too sensible. I've noticed many of the topics you post are news items, usually concerning some disaster or other. I think you're in danger of taking life far too seriously. If I believed everything I read in the daily papers I would have topped myself long ago.

There's still plenty of good things going on but nobody in the "media" seems interested in them. Life in the UK is far better today than it ever was. Please take my advice & lighten up a little. Look on the bright side of life. Stop reading/watching/listening to the news & get out there & start enjoying yourself.

[Romulus111VADT]

All the problems started with the governments trying to dictate what parents can and cannot do. The government has taken away most parental rights and made it almost impossible to discipline a child. Things I grew up with as discipline and didn't think twice about my parents absolute authority, like whippings, being back handed for being disrespectful to my elders, being put in the corner, or grounded for weeks (if not months), are now illegal. Even schools are left almost with no way to discipline a child. Ever since the Supreme Court took "God" out of schools, all these schools have become hell.

[Hagar]

This is very controversial subject & causes strong feelings on both sides of the argument. I'm all in favour of discipline. By discipline I mean teaching children standards you believe in, not beating the living daylights out of them for the smallest misdemeanour. If taught properly from an early age by caring parents this leads to respect for their parents & their own self-respect. Unfortunately there are many parents out there who don't love their children, never wanted them & regularly abuse them. This is the whole cause of the legislation now in force.

like whippings, being back handed for being disrespectful to my elders

I don't know what you mean by "whipping" but this seems excessive to me. If I saw someone beating a child excessively I would have no hesitation in reporting them to the authorities myself. I know this type of thing was quite common in the "good ol' days" but my parents never hit me or my brother. They never needed to as we were brought up to love & respect them. The worse possible thing we could have done was to let them down & I like to believe we never did. I loved them both dearly & still miss them very much. I brought up my dear daughter in the same way & I'm very proud of her. We were strict but never needed to lay a hand on her. Although she might not have liked it at the time she knew we both loved her. We weren't rich but there was always plenty of laughter in our house. That little girl was always the apple of my eye & I love her dearly as she does me.

PS. It always seemed a strange quirk of nature to me that people who least want children produce them like rabbits while many who desperately want a child of their own cannot have one.

[Chris_F]

[quote]Life today is shocking. I'm certainly believe it is worse

[Romulus111VADT]

My father was an EXTREMELY strict disciplinarian. If I even questioned him about things he said or did. The retaliation was always swift and quite painful. By "whippings", I mean that he would use is hand, his belt, fly swatters and the old infamous "hickory switch". This progressed into literal physical fist being used on me as I progressed into my teens. After I left the military, he proceeded with his attempts to dominate me with physical force. This was to no avail as I was physically stronger and much more physically capable of putting a stop to his torment. He tried to hit me and I caught his fist and told him that this was the last time he would ever try to hit me. He started to make a stand. But my mother that had divorced him for child abuse years before flat told him not to try as I'd mop the floor up with him. He backed down and never tried again. He died in the mid 80's and to this day, I love and respect him, even if I will never understand his ways of discipline. His father was far worse, far, far worse!

[Hagar]

I never agreed with this manner of discipline and rarely ever spanked my children. At worse I'd give them a couple of open handed pops on the butt to get their attention. I never used any sort of instrument to enforce my authority.

I can't argue with that. There's a whole world of difference between a quick slap & a beating. Many campaigners can't tell the difference & I've had arguments with members of this forum on this subject before. They will never see my point any more than I will see theirs so we have to agree to disagree. This doesn't change my opinion. Everyone must do what they think is right. One thing I should point out is that I never believed fear had any place in bringing up a child. Plenty of love & laughter is my recipe.

It's apparently common for abused children to become abusive parents themselves. I'm glad this didn't happen in your case.

PS. I don't know the full facts but I was reading only this week about a father being forced from his home & banned from seeing his children. His crime was to be seen slapping his son after he ran out into the road in front of a car. I would probably have done exactly the same in his situation to make the child think twice before doing it again. I leave you to judge who suffers more from this incident, the father or his wife & family.

[Romulus111VADT]

I can't argue with that. There's a whole world of difference between a quick slap & a beating. Many campaigners can't tell the difference & I've had arguments with members of this forum on this subject before. They will never see my point any more than I will see theirs so we have to agree to disagree. This doesn't change my opinion. Everyone must do what they think is right. One thing I should point out is that I never believed fear had any place in bringing up a child. Plenty of love & laughter is my recipe.

It's apparently common for abused children to become abusive parents themselves. I'm glad this didn't happen in your case.

PS. I don't know the full facts but I was reading only this week about a father being forced from his home & banned from seeing his children. His crime was to be seen slapping his son after he ran out into the road in front of a car. I would probably have done exactly the same in his situation to make the child think twice before doing it again. I leave you to judge who suffers more from this incident, the father or his wife & family.

The family will pay dearly w/o the father being there.

My Grandfather was so abusive as to be literally evil. He seemed to get the most perverse joy out of beating me. He needed no reason at all to start a beating, just looking at him the wrong way was all he needed for an excuse.

One example- Once at a dinner at my Grandparents house. We were sitting down to a wonderful steak and potatoes dinner. There was steak sauce on the table and all I asked was to use it. My Grandmother went totally off the wall about me ruining a perfectly good steak that she'd prepared. I simply asked, "If we are not to use the steak sauce, then why is it on the table?" My Grandfather seated to my right at the head of the table back handed me so hard that it knocked me and a large dinner table chair over backwards. I ended up with a black eye, bloody nose and a fat lip (I was all on 8 years old at the time). I was then sent to the other room and denied my dinner. The reason, "You back talked your Grandmother and such impertinence will not be tolerated in my house!" My Mom went totally ballistic and attempted to open up a can of whop a$$ on my Grandfather. My dad intercepted her and forced her into the back room to calm down. We left shortly there after and my dad never said a word to his parents about their actions that night This was the beginning of the end of their marriage.

All this made me determined never to treat my children in such a manner.

[ATI_7500]

Ever since the Supreme Court took "God" out of schools, all these schools have become hell.

This was unconstitutional. Since church and state are strictly divided in the US, you can't have "God" anymore in governmental schools,except in religion class.

And I totally agree with you,Hagar.
There is nothing wrong with a little slap if the child had done something wrong. But of course, love and laughter should be one of the main elements in a family. Later on,when the children come into their teen age, the slaps are replaced by rules, which should leave the kids enogh room for themselves, but without letting them do everything they want.
Another big element is trust. If there is no certain trust between parents and children, the other two elements become almost useless.  This also becomes extremely important during the teen years. The parents trust their children (who, by then take over more and more responsibility in their lives) and the children trust their parents, since the parents are still responsible for bringing their kids up the right way,so the kids should believe that their parents only want the best for them.

I personally was slapped when I was younger, if I misbehaved in an extreme way (my granddad called me "Hussein", when I sat at the dinner table with an angry expression on my face. ), but from my current point of view, I can say that this hasn't been wrong for me. I know my parents love me and there really is a lot of laughter in this household. Now, at the end of my teen years, I've got some rules to follow (buying beverages is mostly my job,for example), but I think they're exactly drawing a good border between personal freedom and restrictions.
As for trust, I really trust my parents. It goes so far that I've told them that I sometimes smoke pot and cigarrettes and what I do in the evenings. They said that this is okay, as long as it doesn't affect the standards of my school work and they'd set an end to that if I overdid it. So I trust them for knowing what is best for me and what is not and they trust me for keeping my life on a straight line.

[Romulus111VADT]

This was unconstitutional. Since church and state are strictly divided in the US, you can't have "God" anymore in governmental schools,except in religion class.

This type of statement has always rather amused me. Check out this site-http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

It's funny how we fought a war against taxation and now we are taxed to death.

Our country was founded by men that came here to avoid religious persecution. Now religion is avoided and persecuted.

[ATI_7500]

But there was a case not that long ago, which was centered around the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance.
The judges said that this was against the constitution and thus "God" was removed from the poa.

So if there really is no seperation between church and state, why did they remove it with this reason on behalf of an atheist?

Religion may be avoided nowadays, but persecuted? No way...

[Hagar]

I'll have to be careful what I say here so I'll just say this. I believe that religion is a very personal thing. I'm quite happy for anyone to believe in whatever they wish - providing they don't try to convert me to those beliefs. I don't believe that religion has any place in government or politics. I never discuss my political or religious leanings with anyone.