Re: Slipped off left again

[gsamsonite]

Never heard of anyone that's gone off the runway twice.

Parafield gets some pretty serious winds and it sounds like it's just a lack of control .  

Another lesson on Effects of Controls is advisable.

[beaky]

is it possible that your heels were not on the floor and you touched the left brake pedal?

There is that one... forgot about that.

[TSC.]

Wake turbulence??
:-?
From a C172??

Are you being serious? That is not even possible Wingo, does anyone ese agree with me here?

I have been flying, instructing at Parafield for over 3 years now and have never seen such an event.

I have landed with 4 other planes on the runway, that were in formation just ahead of me on final, and nothing . . . that is too weird, are you sure it wasn't just you as a pilot??

Bloody oath Clear Out The Skies, what are you going to do when you're coming in behind jets, you might bank more than 50 degrees!

Are you serious??????






That is absolutely ridiculous. Are you really a Qantas pilot?

[quote]Never heard of anyone that's gone off the runway twice.

Parafield gets some pretty serious winds and it sounds like it's just a lack of control .

[Brett_Henderson]

He discredited himself with that first post.

[Splinter562]

I have landed with 4 other planes on the runway, that were in formation just ahead of me on final, and nothing . . . that is too weird, are you sure it wasn't just you as a pilot??

Off topic, but I have done formation landings in Cessna 152s. One time, I made the mistake of being on the downwind side of lead with a slight crosswind. Even that little bitty airplane makes noticeable wake turbulence. It's about the same as having some low level turbulence on a gusty day. Nothing that the aircraft can't handle, but could be a problem if careful attention isn't paid to directional control.

If there wasn't a crosswind that day, then my guess is still the left brake, but could be wake turbulence if the winds were just right and you were right after something like a larger twin. I don't think it's the p-factor. Unless you really let it go, you usually don't run into takeoff controllability problems until you get into high-performance aircraft or taildraggers.

The only time I've ever had an aircraft try to wander off towards the side of the runway was in a V-tail Bonanza. I accidentally left the yaw damper on when landing in a crosswind. The airplane was trying to put in a bit of left rudder after touch down which I had to immediately correct for with pressure on the right pedal. Again, something that could have been an issue without careful attention to directional control.

[Wingo]

I wasn't going to say anything, but seeing how TSC. has brought it up.

Do you have something against me gsamsonite? Your profile says you have made three posts, and as far as I see all three have been made against me. I say against me due to the fact that, unlike some people such as Brett and Rotty, your posts seem to have no constructive advise or value. I agree with TSC.'s comment, are you like this with all of your students? You seem to expect people to intuitively know how to fly an aircraft, and not make a single mistake or fault. Tell me, are you so perfect that when you were learning to fly you made every take off perfect, every circuit perfect and every landing perfect? If you say "Yes" then I say you are a liar.

Maybe you are afraid of admitting your own mistakes? May you be one of the cowboy pilots who thinks they are impenetrable and flawless? The reasons I post what I do is because I know when I make a mistake, and I want to fix it so I don't make the same mistake twice. As others have said, my instructor is my primary source but I would also like to gather other opinions, another viewpoint on my errors. I am in training to be a Qantas pilot, I currently have 70 hours and just got my PPL. I by no means expect myself to be perfect yet, I do expect by the time I enter Qantas to be bloody good at what I do but I also expect to still be learning.

Why is it that when ever I do post asking about opinions, you always seem to be right there ready to ridicule? Being an instructor I would think you may have something constructive to say, especially if you have been instructing for three years. Is there any particular reason why you take aim at me? You don't seem to want to have a shot at anyone else who posts with problems. Are you perhaps jealous that I am a Qantas Cadet, and have an oppurtunity that you didn't? I am not by any means saying I am better than you by saying that, nor do I think I am better than anyone else for being a Qantas Cadet. If I did think so, why would I be here admitting my mistakes? I am always first to notice when I do something wrong, because I want to be the best I can be.

Your first post was in reply to my first solo thread. Now being my first solo, how many hours do you think I had? 20 or so? Do you expect me to be perfect, after 20 hours, with the stress of my first solo on top? It does seem so. Yes, I did get low on approach and go through some wake turbulence, and it has been the only time. Guess what? A C172 does produce wake, every wing producing lift creates a wake vortex. It is called induced drag, and happens to increase when the angle of attack increases. If a 172 is on final, with a high angle of attack, with flaps out and producing a large amount of lift then it will produce some significant vortexes. You may have experienced it yourself when doing a steep level turn. Ever done one perfectly, and then felt the bump at the end? That was you going through your own vortex. I thought that would be basic knowledge for an instructor.

Your second and third posts were in this thread. I can't say much about the first one other than what I said earlier. I will add one thing though, do you find "Are you serious?????? That is absolutely ridiculous. Are you really a Qantas pilot?" a suitable reply, especially when compared to other posts that followed by helpful members? Your next post is equally ridiculous. I didn't realise every single pilot in the world goes off the runway only once, thanks for sharing that information. Secondly I have only run off the runway ONCE. That was the first time I experienced this effect. I posted about it and recieved some very helpful replies and when I experienced the same effect again the other day I was able to react suitably and move into ground effect for greater control before climbing out. See what I did there? I learnt from a mistake so it wouldn't happen again! What I want to know is what produces the effect described, because it is an odd effect that isn't covered in day to day lessons. I don't need an effects of control lesson, I understand fully what each control does. At the moment, it seems the cause is the aircraft is light enough to slightly lift earlier than I am used to with an instructor on board.

I ask kindly that you no longer reply to my threads, unless you have something constructive or helpful to add.

[Wingo]

I decided to clear things up and draw what happened as best as I could and condense all the information I can give.

The initial pull to the LEFT is NORMAL, it always happens and except for these two times I have always been able to correct without a hitch.

What happens after isn't normal. I apply RIGHT rudder, the nose yaws RIGHT but inertia (that's my thought at least) takes the aircraft on its original course to the left. The tyres lose traction and you can hear ALL tyres squealing/scraping. It is this action that caused the run off the runway the first time, due to the tyres no longer providing directional control. Second time it happened as soon as I heard the tyres squeal I lifted off.

(Caps are just for highlighting)

The constants are:
1. The exact same aircraft (VH-KHE)
2. Solo
3. Reduced fuel level
4. Aircraft TOW around 950kg or about 2090lb

First time:
1. Above constants
2. Touch and Go
3. Average wind from the LEFT
4. Flap still retracting (i.e. partially out)

Second time:
1. Above constants
2. Takeoff roll started from a standing position
3. Light and variable wind. Wind sock limp, but aligned with runway.
4. No flaps

A thought has just occured to me. These are the only two times that the above constants have been met! Every other time I have gone solo I have always had full fuel, been doing a training area solo and only landed and taxiied off with no other takeoffs. I have done three solo navs now as well, but the first one I didn't land anywhere and the second I did a touch and go with relatively higher fuel levels. i.e. These are the only two times I have taken off solo with a reduced fuel level.

That is all the info I can think of giving. If there is anything else please ask.

I will add that I am very conscious of ensuring my feet are well on the floor away from the brakes and ensure the aircraft is travelling down the centreline, with the nose straight, before applying full power.

[gsamsonite]

TSC - not talking to you. The way I manage my students is none of your business and I'll have you know all of them have gone on to bigger and better things.

Brett Henderson - No discredit there. I was stating the facts.

Splinter562 - I was talking about a. 152s and b. landing behind them, obviously with a low power setting.

And Wingo - I don't have anything against you personally... It's just I have students that would give my right arm, for a place in your course, and could very possibly be there on more merit.
If you have a problem, ask a real pilot - not others on here.

You're all hacks! I'm out.

[Brett_Henderson]

Freudian slip ?

[TSC.]

If you have a problem, ask a real pilot - not others on here.

You are a real pilot, you were asked, & yet you still had no answers - just put downs.

Wingo was simply asking for advice, not a kick in the nuts.

TSC.

[Mobius]

The way I manage my students is none of your business and I'll have you know all of them have gone on to bigger and better things.

Scary.


Wingo, if you don't mind me asking, do you know what your total weight was on that take-off or both take-offs?  If I remember right, you're not a huge person (no offense, I just mean you don't weight 400 lbs or anything ).  I've actually heard of people who have had troubles with control when they're flying solo in a lightly loaded aircraft and they've had to throw a cinderblock or two in the luggage compartment to balance things out.

Something else that I just though of:  In the 172, the nosewheel steering is a weight-on-wheels activated system, so if you had rotated or had enough speed that there wasn't enough weight on the nosewheel for the nosewheel steering to be active and there might not have been enough airflow over the rudder to make it useful, or even deflecting it too much could have stalled it (I'm not too sure about that one though).  

Like Brett said, I would suggest lining up pointed a few degrees to the right and just be ready for it to start to go.

[Brett_Henderson]

I'm still thinking that a light pilot, alone in a C172, with less than 1/2 tanks

[beaky]

I'm still thinking that a light pilot, alone in a C172, with less than 1/2 tanks  WITH 10 degrees of flaps, might find the tires useless at airspeed as low as 30knots.

**being that I weigh all of 225, and rarely fly alone (and rarely use flaps for takeoff).. I'm kinda clueless..  

'Tis true... the tires help somewhat, especially when landing and rolling out, but they're not really made to resist the various effects that can cause drift on the runway. that's why aileron and rudder input should be there from the beginning of the takeoff roll.

BTW... just a little nit-picking: "Traction" refers to powered wheels ("the transference of mechanical force through friction" or whatever the definition is). Friction is all a free-wheeling airplane tire can provide. And not much, at that.

Not assuming anyone here thinks Cessna wheels are powered; just a little observation.

[Brett_Henderson]

Excellent observation.. Aviation is one place where getting a little loose with terminology can pile up into a bunch of mis-communication..

Rotty, you're not a 200-pounder..  Can a C172 get frictionless at 30kias with just you, low fuel and 10 degrees of flaps ?

[beaky]

Excellent observation.. Aviation is one place where getting a little loose with terminology can pile up into a bunch of mis-communication..

Rotty, you're not a 200-pounder..  Can a C172 get frictionless at 30kias with just you, low fuel and 10 degrees of flaps ?

Depends. Runway surface (water, ice, gooey asphalt, lots of polished rubber from numerous landings), tire condition... etc. It's never happened to me on takeoff that I can recall,  and every time I've landed crooked I wished there was less friction. , so I can't confirm or deny the possibility.


But once I did taxi a 172 on an icy, narrow taxiway with just me and about 15 gallons of fuel aboard, and it was a pretty close shave. One of the few times in a plane where I've said aloud: "This was a bad idea..."  ;D

I've made a few zig-zag takeoffs due to bad footwork, and crow-hopped due to improper aileron input, etc... but I've never really felt I was drifting while still in contact with the runway.

It's hard to tell, though, sometimes... that's why I try to roll on the runway as if the tires were greasy. Just in case. If you count on the tires too much, you may be disappointed.

They may also grab too much sometimes- I've heard of more than one instance of a 172 or similar coming to grief because the (probably under-inflated) tire came off the rim due to side-loading!

Most of the time, the "trike" arrangement does what it should (keeps the plane more or less straight in response to yawing while on the runway), but if it's wet or icy, or you're on grass or dirt, you need to be ready with rudder and aileron. It's best to forget what you think you can expect from the wheels and just fly it until you can brake.