Stalling?

[Brett_Henderson]

Try it in a Tomahawk (Piper).. When my instructor demonstrated spin recovery.. we went right  into a spin.. IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION

[Hagar]

Try it in a proper aeroplane like a Tiger Moth. Then you will know what spinning is all about.

Funny you should post this.

I clearly remember my boss at the aero club telling me to disconnect it when we took delivery of a brand new Beagle Terrier back in the 1960s. This might have been against regulations but his exact words were something like "You can disconnect that for a start. I can't teach anyone to fly properly with that blasted thing going off every couple of minutes." My boss was one of the most experienced & respected flying instructors in the world at the time & had been teaching people to fly since 1911. I reckoned he knew what he was talking about.

[C]

That might be so in the RAF Charlie & I wouild expect nothing less. What about normal civil training to PPL standard that I was referring to? I can't see that being anywhere near as comprehensive & not sure you would even have to do stall recovery before being sent solo now.

Mmm, my first 20 hours or so were at a civvy school, and  I'm fairly sure we were taught the stall recovery pre-solo (being an RAF sponsored course I expect this would be the case as. To notot teach it could be considered negligent in the event of a poor little 18 year old stoofing it in on finals).

Yes, in the US we are taught the same three stalls, however it's done at a safe altitude, and spins are avoided as we don't have very good ejection seats in a C172.   We also have to demonstrate stalls during the checkride, and I just took my BFR and I had to do all three stalls there too.  

We do it in a similar fashion - our minimum (intentional!)stalling height is 5000ft AGL, even with the seats, and would technically give a 2000ft window in which to recover the aircraft in the event of a departure from controlled flight before the mandatory minimum abandonment height.

We don't have to practice spins though, a 172 is pretty docile and it is difficult to get it into a spin, my instructor tried to show me what it was like, but he wasn't able to atually make it spin.  

I was once offered a demonstration in a C152! I politely declined...

[C]

I clearly remember my boss at the aero club telling me to disconnect it when we took delivery of a brand new Beagle Terrier back in the 1960s. This might have been against regulations but his exact words were something like "You can disconnect that for a start. I can't teach anyone to fly properly with that blasted thing going off every couple of minutes." My boss was one of the most experienced & respected flying instructors in the world at the time & had been teaching people to fly since 1911. I reckoned he knew what he was talking about.

To be fair though they do give the pilot plenty of warning before he even gets (relatively) near the stall though. They do get annoying though after a while. However, when they stop working it can get uneasily quiet!

[Brett_Henderson]

Hagar wrote:

I clearly remember my boss at the aero club telling me to disconnect it when we took delivery of a brand new Beagle Terrier back in the 1960s

I used to say that if I owned a plane, I'd disable the stall-horn . A lot of the fun flying for me is at or near stall speed. I  REALLY enjoy tossing a plane around in slow-flight. If you can master Dutch Rolls, right at stall-speed, you're more than prepared to land a plane in a gusty, unpredictable cross-wind. And, if you take off from grass fields with obstacles.. requiring a rigid V-x climb.. the stall horn can get annoying. I thought.. geez.. if you cant feel a stall coming on by now you shouldn't be flying..

An equal wise, vetran instructor told me it would all but void my insurance and promised me that at some point, climbing out in IMC that I'll be fiddling with the radios or something and that horn will remind me I had neglected the attitude indicator and/or airspeed indicator.. You'd be surprised how quickly a plane will get "out of shape" when you can hardly see the wing-tips.

[Hagar]

An equal wise, vetran instructor told me it would all but void my insurance and promised me that at some point, climbing out in IMC that I'll be fiddling with the radios or something and that horn will remind me I had neglected the attitude indicator and/or airspeed indicator.. You'd be surprised how quickly a plane will get "out of shape" when you can hardly see the wing-tips.

He was most probably correct about that but you have to appreciate that things were a little different in 1960. For one thing we had no radio to fiddle about with.

[Mobius]

One day during my preflight, I found the stall horn didn't work, so I told my instructor, and he said, "just don't stall".  So Spirit, tell your instructor you just don't ever plan on stalling.  ;D

[beaky]

One day during my preflight, I found the stall horn didn't work, so I told my instructor, and he said, "just don't stall".

That's like a page right out of my logbook... had exactly the same conversation once.
At first that horn going off 5-10 kts above stall alarmed me (which is why most CFIs don't like them- distracting), then it annoyed me, but now when I practice MCA maneuvers, i like to hear it going... confirms that I'm "in the zone".

[beaky]

Try it in a Tomahawk (Piper).. When my instructor demonstrated spin recovery.. we went right  into a spin.. IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION

I've heard similar stories about Tomahawks... they seem a little unfriendly in a fully-developed stall, from what I've heard. Other than that, they're wonderful trainer/sport planes.
Most interesting tale was of a CFI and student who found themselves in a deep stall; the heavier of the two had to crawl up onto the glareshield to get the CG forward enough for the nose to come down.

[beaky]

Yes, in the US we are taught the same three stalls, however it's done at a safe altitude, and spins are avoided as we don't have very good ejection seats in a C172.  We also have to demonstrate stalls during the checkride, and I just took my BFR and I had to do all three stalls there too.  We don't have to practice spins though, a 172 is pretty docile and it is difficult to get it into a spin, my instructor tried to show me what it was like, but he wasn't able to atually make it spin.

Same here... had a good feel for stall recovery before starting proper pattern work, and rightly so.
Also had a CFI try to spin a C172 for me- took a lot of work, and we'd already descended so much, he recovered after about 1/2 turn. It was a pretty benign "departure"... low rotaion rate, etc.

[Hagar]

That's like a page right out of my logbook... had exactly the same conversation once.
At first that horn going off 5-10 kts above stall alarmed me (which is why most CFIs don't like them- distracting), then it annoyed me, but now when I practice MCA maneuvers, i like to hear it going... confirms that I'm "in the zone".

Just as long as you don't rely on it as even the simplest mechanical device can go wrong & the calibration or positioning of the actuator switch might vary considerably on different aircraft, even the same type. Some might work better than others or have a habit of sticking. I think this was one of the reasons for my boss not liking the idea, especially on a basic trainer. Far better to be able to recognise an impending stall without depending on a instrument.

[Hagar]

I've heard similar stories about Tomahawks... they seem a little unfriendly in a fully-developed stall, from what I've heard. Other than that, they're wonderful trainer/sport planes.

If I remember correctly there were several fatal accidents involving the Tomahawk when it first appeared. I don't know what they did to rectify it but some people are still very wary of its bad reputation. The local flying club seems to operate them with no problems but I'm not sure I would fancy learning on one.

PS. Tomahawk Safety Review - February 1997. http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9702.html

[C]

Far better to be able to recognise an impending stall without depending on a instrument.

True. However any safety net is better than none. I can think of a couple of scenarios where the stall warner may very easily make the difference between landing safely and ending up a crumpled heap in the ground (particularly if there is cloud around! )

[edit] I notice Brett's mentioned this above. The stall warner could be the difference between regaining control before the stall, or pointing at the ground in rapid time  ;)

[Hagar]

[quote][edit] I notice Brett's mentioned this above. The stall warner could be the difference between regaining control before the stall, or pointing at the ground in rapid time

[Brett_Henderson]

When you're peripheral vision is loaded with a nice mixture of terra-firma and blue.. it mixes well enough with your other senses to feel a stall coming in plenty of time. I'd be more than happy to never hear a stall horn in that situation.. It's that darn IMC stuff.. THAT'S when I'm glad it's there. The stall you enter then could very well be because you're banking some 60 degrees and didn't even now it. That kinda stall has a much smaller recovery window.

(I'm picturing Hagar setting a wheelbarrow on it's rests and trying to figure out what that blasted noise was  :D  )