This game is biased

[nickle]

Woody
The kinetic energy of the 303 vs the 50 and 20 is not a matter of belief.  The 303 was an ineffective weapon. A matter of fact.
Why else would the BR's go to 20's?  Why the US did not is a mystery.
Your estimate of 700 ft effective is exaggerated for the 303.
The 303 and similar were only secondary to main armament in fighters after 1940.
Same problem in the P-40B.  Two 50's and four 30's were ineffective.  Subsequent versions had 50's; 4 on the D and 6 on the E.

[Smoke2much]

If the .303 was so ineffective can you please explain the losses inflicted on the Luftwaffe during the summer of 1940 by the Hurricane Squadrons of Southern Command RAF.

Thankyou.

Will

[Woodlouse2002]

Woody

Your estimate of 700 ft effective is exaggerated for the 303.

The 700ft thing was tried and tested by the RAF and it worked. Why else did the Luftwaffe lose the battle of britain? The Bf109's and 110's had cannon. And they lost far more aircraft.

[Bob_Ruff]

The RAF did not officially recognise kills so any claim was excepted. Any pilot claiming a shared kill, got a half a kill. So if 6 pilots claimed the same plane, 3 German planes were reported downed. The RAF counted and picked up every German plane that crashed during BoB. Between Aug8 and Sept 11, they claimed 1631 kills with 582 probables, yet only had 316 wrecked Luftwaffe planes. The Luftwaffe did not consider a claim unless there was at least one other eye witness. If more than one pilot claimed the same plane, the unit got one kill and neither pilot received anything. It is interesting to note that German unit Kill claim records and RAF official British Plane losses are nearly indentical. The British knew these claims were wild exagerations, but needed the moral boost to their people on the brink of defeat. All the British had to do was keep Germany from having total control of the skies until the weather turned to bad for a German invasion. That was much easier than trying to eliminate the RAF. The Luftwaffe almost did it,but Churchill starting the city wars saved the RAF and Britain. Had the Germans not turned to bomb London and finished the RAF as they should have, things would have been different. Churchill's bold move saved England and Hitler fell for it. Hitler snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!
Wulfmann

[nickle]

The 700ft thing was tried and tested by the RAF and it worked. Why else did the Luftwaffe lose the battle of britain? The Bf109's and 110's had cannon. And they lost far more aircraft.  

Br came very close to losing the BOB.  A number of reasons they prevailed.
Dumb decision by Goering to cease attacks on Br airfields and radar sites.  The N's were close to control of the air when they switched tactics.
Extreme range for the 109's.  The N's lost many to fuel starvation with their pilots in the Channel. Made worse by orders to stay with the bombers even with low fuel warning lights.
Radar
The 303 was a Br legacy from WW1 along with outdated fighter tactics.  The reason the 303 was used because it was available and nothing more.  The Br's were prepared to fight the last war.  
Excellent docudrama is Piece of Cake aired in 1990, 50 th anniversary BOB.  Best fighter flick ever made.
Read Churchill's statement re BOB.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]

Br came very close to losing the BOB.

[nickle]

'Piece of Cake' was a series written in the 1950's by someone who didn't even take part in the conflict.

.303 was used because the round was used in the British service rifle and so was being churned out by the million anyway. Also the browning .30 cal machinegun was easily converted to .303 caliber.  

The .303 from WWI would either be the Lewis or Vickers K machine guns. The Lewis gun, which was water cooled wasn't used in aircraft. The Vickers K was used only as a rear gun on aircraft like the Swordfish and NOT Spitfires and Hurricanes.

And during the battle for france the british fighter pilots found out that the eight .303 machine guns were more than suitable at a range of 260 yards or less.  

Note that most documentaries are made well after the event.  Shouldn't be a hard to understand.

The problem was that WWI weapons were not adequate for WWII with reference to the 303.

If you know Br fighter pilot gun preference 303 to 20 mm, state your source.

Max effective range 303 is 163 meters
Max effective range 20 mm is 1085 meters

And Woody wants the manly weapon?  
Sounds like WWI pilots and the parachute issue.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]If you know Br fighter pilot gun preference 303 to 20 mm, state your source.

Max effective range 303 is 163 meters
Max effective range 20 mm is 1085 meters

And Woody wants the manly weapon?

[4_Series_Scania]

Another reason (apart from the fact Hitler was a strategic muppet!)  the Luftwaffe lost the B.o.B was Herr Hartmann was serving Over Romania and later on the eastern front.

Had his 352 confirmed kill's been on the Western front, who knows?

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]Another reason (apart from the fact Hitler was a strategic muppet!)

[chomp_rock]

No the .303 was only inefective when not used in groups. 8 .303s pack enough firepower to rip any plane to bits. You just have to get close because the .303 fires bullets at 500rpm and does not have enough powder in the small cartridge to send them very far.

[Bob_Ruff]

The effective range of a MG-151 20MM may be 1,000 yds, but not the short barreled open bolted FF used on the 109E-3 and 4s during BoB. They had less range thean the 303 and the pilots relied more on their 2 8MM Mausers. With only two of them, but allot of ammo, they did the job, because the pilots were good enough to adapt. Had the British tested the 20MMFF sooner, they would not have had such a high opinion as they later admitted.

Erich Hartmann was still in school during BoB. He was not in Russia for the "easy kills" but faced a determined, well trained and equiped Russian foe and earned his kills. He also shot down 7 US P-51Ds. In one engagement, he downed 5 and outmanuvered the rest of the 7 survivors until he ran out of fuel and had to bail.
When in Soviet prison he was tauted as the greatest fighter pilot by Soviet officials for his kill record, but said he was not the highest scoring pilot. He said Hans Marsailles shot down 158 British planes and since a British plane equals 3 Russian planes, that made Hans the top scoring pilot. This infuriated the Russians (His intent). While funny, it is untrue. the Russians were quite good in the air, but they were being measured against some of the world's best.
In 1944 over Germany most US pilots faced young poorly trained kids. They never faced the tougher large groups as the Russians did.
Wulfmann

[Woodlouse2002]

Erich Hartmann was still in school during BoB. He was not in Russia for the "easy kills" but faced a determined, well trained and equiped Russian foe and earned his kills. He also shot down 7 US P-51Ds. In one engagement, he downed 5 and outmanuvered the rest of the 7 survivors until he ran out of fuel and had to bail.
When in Soviet prison he was tauted as the greatest fighter pilot by Soviet officials for his kill record, but said he was not the highest scoring pilot. He said Hans Marsailles shot down 158 British planes and since a British plane equals 3 Russian planes, that made Hans the top scoring pilot. This infuriated the Russians (His intent). While funny, it is untrue. the Russians were quite good in the air, but they were being measured against some of the world's best.
In 1944 over Germany most US pilots faced young poorly trained kids. They never faced the tougher large groups as the Russians did.
Wulfmann

I still consider the Bf109 to be a far better plane than almost anything the Russians came up with. And if the Russians were flying planes that were equal to or better than the Bf109 the Hartmann would not have got quite so many kills.

[4_Series_Scania]

Erich Hartmann was still in school during BoB

Oh well, my theory shot down in flames!  ::)

[Bob_Ruff]

I still consider the Bf109 to be a far better plane than almost anything the Russians came up with. And if the Russians were flying planes that were equal to or better than the Bf109 the Hartmann would not have got quite so many kills.

The Russian planes became equal and sometimes superior to the 109.
Hartmann scored 352 confirmed kills flying 1405 combat missions and was involved in 825 dogfights. That is one kill for every four missions and success less than half hi dogfights. Since he says he snuck up on 80% of his victums (281), that would mean he scored 71 victories in the other 544 duels. Or 7 out of 8 times the adversary got away.
Just running numbers.
An American pilot that flew 100 missions and score 30 kills would have a higher percentage.
Hartmann was amongst the cr