Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

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Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby Brett_Henderson » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:44 pm

My AMD64 3000,  MSI K8t NEO, ATI 9800pro256 machine has served me well, but it's time to retire it *sigh*..

Thanks to this forum, I have a pretty good idea where I'm headed CPU and V-Card wise, but I'm a little befuddled with RAM. All the m-boards I've researched  list the RAM specs as (DDR STANDARD) DDR400. Would that be a base-line.. like a mnimum, because that's what I have now ?

Also.. the boards most talked about here only have 184-pin DDR RAM slots. Is the 240-pin DDR2 the way to go ?

I made the mistake of jumping into a socket 754 AMD3000 back then..  I don't want to make a similar RAM boo-boo now...

Thanks..
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby ctjoyce » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:59 pm

Well if you go the AMD route, DDR2 is completely out of the question until AM2. Also I wouldn't personally use it until they get the timings under controol. However as for what to look for RAM wise I would suggest a 2GB Corsair XMS kit (2-3-3-6 or 2-2-2-5 timings). I have a 1GB PC3200 kit and it does very well. As for the faster PC3XXX and above I know not how much they increase preformance. I know you need atleast PC4000 to overclock your RAM (correct if I'm wrong) but I doubt you'll be doing that.

Moving along to motherboards. Again this depends alot on what you want to do. If you want to do SLi on AMD look for a 939 board with a NForce 4 SLix16 chipset (uses all 16 lanes out of the PCI-Express insted of normal SLi which uses only 8). The only two that I know of are form ASUS and MSI. For the extreem overclocker DFI LanPartys have some amazing BIOS features, however have other things like faulty IDE RAID etc. If you go the crossfire route, there are some pretty decent ATI Express 200 boards from Gigabyte. Pretty much tell us what you want to do, and we shall suggest a board *cough* passive cooling *cough*

Anyway what else is going into the case?

Cheers
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby Brett_Henderson » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:22 pm

I don't want to open that can of worms (for my own sake.. I confuse easily).. I have enough of a grasp on overkill that I'm convinced a dual-core processor might be a case of overkill (FS9 and DODsource are about as hard as I push a computer (though I think I did GMAX a crash or two (backdrop zooming (and that mighta been a RAM / page-file thing)).. So I've swung back from wanting a Toledo 4400 to thinking a SanDiego 3700 will be good for another year(I hope). I think the 939/1mbL2 will be quite a step up for me and (thanks to confidence born form this forum) I plan to OC.. slightly.

So.. a good, low numbered (2-2-2-5), brand name RAM @ PC3200 will do fine for a year  (I'll be back with questions when I'm tweaking set-up) ?

I've also settled on a 7800GTX type card. I'm not as concerned about bottle-necking as I am about over-kill. I know it's near impossible to match and time every component (or is it ?)....

An SLI board seems to make sense as it's not that much more expensive and I might get brave...
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby ctjoyce » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:43 pm

Well nice choice with the Processer and GPU. Remember that now dual core isnt that important, but vista is going to take huge advantage of it. And that GPU should last you a good while, and wouln't bottolneck on the 3700+ As far as RAM goes you have got the idea down pretty good. Now on to the motherboards. SLi x8 boards run pretty cheeply. $125 for a decent ASUS one isn't that bad, however the X16 ones run about $220+ Basically you pay $100 extra for 8 PCI-Express pipelines. Which are a huge help, however if I were you, I would go with a good single slot board, and get a 7900GT.

SLi x16 Board
Sli x8

So there you have it. There are also numerous single slot boards to choose from that will range in price of $25~$180.

Cheers
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby candle_86 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:26 am

ram wise corsair is over priced and not what they once were, many still boast them, but truth is they just can't keep up, and the XMS is just a waste. For the power users that come into the shop we put faster, yet cheaper ram in there system, unless they request something else. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820144513

this ram i will stake my reputation on, and have seen better preformance on it than on corsair latly.

Now I know you said you wanted to go with the 3700, well for the same price you can get a 3800 X2 and despite what ppl here will tell you, most software comming out this year and from now on is multi-threaded so a single core is just a waste.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819103562

These two should preform quite nicely in for your price and offer better power than a corsair/3700 rig would
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby Brett_Henderson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:03 am

I'm more concerned about having a a megabyte of L2 cache than dual core and this system will be ready for upgrading by the time Vista and any dual-core apps are common (I think). The 4400 Toledo will come down in price by then and I'll just swap it.

The RAM timing numbers aren't just a bunch of phooey, are they ?

I try not to get caught up in the spec-frenzy.. but for the price difference.. 2-2-2-5 RAM seems worth it..
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby ctjoyce » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:07 am

Candle are you serious with the GeIL? Not only are those really shotty timings, that company has a rep for being very budget based. If you have a problem with XMS, than go with OCZ. The difference between GeIL and XMS is there, I would know. When I first built my system I used GeIL and payed for it.

As for the CPU, nothing dual core is comeing out till the release of Vista, and were not even sure if the main market will even switch to the new OS.

Cheers
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby congo » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:29 pm

Brett,

In general, lower ram timings mean quality, or at least performance.

Ram is of course only one small factor in the quest for performance.

At 400mhz and low timings, PC3200 on a socket 939 based system provides plenty of memory speed and bandwidth. Many are advising 2gb of ram, and while I don't dispute this directly, it's really a question of whether you actually require it or not. FS9, as far as I'm aware, won't use a fraction of that.

A 7800GT fitted to a San Diego based rig will supply 90FPS in FS9 at stock speeds, nevermind overclocking. I would consider a GTX model overkill for fS9, but I'm not one to install lot's of payware addons etc. I've actually installed a 7800GT on a clean new 3700+ rig with 1gb of PC3500, and it was simply awesome to behold.

There are only 2 models of X2 cpu's that a gamer need consider at present, unless he is an adept overclocker. The X2 4400+ is the minimum spec that will give performance equivalent to a San Diego on almost all current software titles, at least at stock speeds. For all you poor saps that traded in your fast XP single cored cpu's for slower X2 3800's, I tried to warn you..........

You can't use DDR2 RAM on current AMD systems, but you can use high spec RAM like I use if you want to achieve "DDR2 like" speeds with it. I doubt there is very much "real world" performance increase in doing this, however, a lot of small things add up when building a performance system, this is probably why my benchmarks are usually well above average.



I'll repeat my system design philosophy here for you.

Get the very best mainboard/chipset you can, this is NOT the most expensive.

At present many are touting the NF4 SLI 16x chipset as the "desireable" one, when in fact, it has a serious architectural flaw on the memory bus. No software even comes close to using the potential video bandwidth that the old SLI chipsets provide, yet people are buying the new SLI 16x chipset and making noises about how great it is, completely unaware that their potential memory bus bandwidth has been halved, and this will have an impact much sooner than PCIe bottlenecking will. (should PCIe bottlenecking indeed ever occur)

Why SLI? Well, it is a gimmick, plain and simple. I bought an SLI mainboard simply because the chipset was solid
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby candle_86 » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:18 pm

There are only 2 models of X2 cpu's that a gamer need consider at present, unless he is an adept overclocker. The X2 4400+ is the minimum spec that will give performance equivalent to a San Diego on almost all current software titles, at least at stock speeds. For all you poor saps that traded in your fast XP single cored cpu's for slower X2 3800's, I tried to warn you..........


Well x2 3800 is a great CPU, just teach them how to OC, those things with default cooling will get up to 2.4 some I have seen run at 2.6, and with better cooling I've seen people get up to 2.9 from them. A guy on that site i talk about just oced his up to 2.8. Just show them how to OC, and save them money
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby Brett_Henderson » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:17 pm

All variables equalized.. any CPU can be over-clocked.. so, to me, that bigger L2cache is the key. I remember many moons ago... an upgrade from an XP2000 to an XP2500 was a much greater performance increase than the 2000-2500 step would suggest because the XP2500 had the larger L2.. (Barton, I believe (that CPU is still running a file-server for a flight club today))

This leads me to believe that dual-core, small cached CPU (x2 3800) is a lesser gaming CPU than an x1 3700 with the 1mb L2.. for FS9, anyway...

It's just the like the mistake I made with the socket 754 chip just to get 64-bit.

I'm going with the 3700 SanDiego and when the time comes .. I'll just pony up for the 4400 Toledo. I'll be happy to get a year out of this upgrade (now that I'm not gonna get 7800GTX, it's not going to be that expensive)(thanks Congo). I'll just make sure the M-board will be a good platform for the 4400 and whatever V-card might catch my fancy at the time. Who knows.. I might get away with nearly two years all said and done for less than $2000 total .. Can't beat that !


EDIT: quick question, Congo...

Will the faster RAM (like in your signature) plug right into all these boards listing DDR400 as a standard?  No problem ?
Last edited by Brett_Henderson on Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby fish-n-pilot » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:47 pm

All variables equalized.. any CPU can be over-clocked.. so, to me, that bigger L2cache is the key.

This leads me to believe that dual-core, small cached CPU (x2 3800) is a lesser gaming CPU than an x1 3700 with the 1mb L2.. for FS9, anyway...



You are correct in your assessment of the L2 size and your choice in the San Diego single core CPU for the application you are going to be using it with. However there is something to consider in the next generation of games/motherboards/video adapters and operating systems when it comes to dual core processors... will that come to market before your next system purchase? Possibly but probably not. It is getting close to the time when software will be released which will have full x64 support and then remains the R&D period before the software/hardware are completely debugged. Many modern motherboards support both single and dual core CPU's so the upgrade can be easy when the time comes. I do not see the PCI-E standard going away any time soon and I agree with congo that SLI is currently a hardware purchasing gimmick

I would stick with the single core for now.

Memory selection for performance should include the over clock factor before making a final purchase. Research into the motherboard and memory combination is the key to how well a processor will remain stable in an overclocked environment, which includes over-clocking the video adapter.

Lower memory timing and not using a divider was critical in the days prior to the A64 processor however since components that make up the northbridge of the past are now incorporated into the A64 architecture, using higher memory timings and the motherboard dividers do not have the same performance loss it did in the past. What is more important are well designed lower timing modules which will allow "overhead" in FSB stability @ higher clocks by raising those timings and the frequency i.e.; 200mhz (DDR400) 2-2-3-5 with 1T spec modules in an over clock environment provide better real world performance @ 280mhz, 5:3 divider (DDR333) 2.5-4-4-11 1T because they will allow the processor/memory buss to hit higher FSB, stable. With A64 that is key to high performace.

Memory modules should always be purchased with 1T ability @ higher buss speeds because the A64 processor/buss responds better with 1T enabled. It is not 100% necessary to stay @ 1T but real world performance will be effected with positive results by running 1T, more so than getting an extra 5-10Mhz out of the buss.

OCZ is an excellent choice for memory product. They also have a good support forum with OCZ techs that will assist in making the purchase based on the system and its use. They also provide that long list of memory timing settings in most modern BIOS's which are normally set on AUTO because usually only the manufacture of the module knows what those settings will provide in stability during a performance over-clock.



PS: Do not shirk or go cheap on the power supply... that purchase is the #1 reason for low clocking ability and lack of stability in higher clocks, and many times lack of stabilty even without any over-clock.

It is always best to put out more money on a high spec/clean signal PSU than it is to throw money at the processor and expect a cheaper PSU to run it stable.

The extra money spent: Call it insurance for a happy system and owner.
Last edited by fish-n-pilot on Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby Brett_Henderson » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:34 pm

Yeah..I won't skip on the PSU.. seriously. It's like the only component that I DO have a good understaning of... Rectifying, regulating and filtering ..

I'm comfy with the CPU and V-card selecting.. I'm getting there on M-boards, but this RAM stuff is glazing my eyes..

Any opinions on MSI stuff ?  "K8N Neo4 Platinum nForce4 Ultra"    , in specific ?  

Is there a big difference between nForce4 and nForce4-ultra ?

Any favorites among 7800gt manufacturers ?


As for RAM..  I'm convinced I'll be fine with a 2-2-2-5 DDR400.. any brand (tell me if I'm wrong) and just punching up the CPU by 10 %..

I'm going to go research this 1T stuff.. I hope my head doesn't explode.
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby fish-n-pilot » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:53 pm

[quote]Yeah..I won't skip on the PSU.. seriously. It's like the only component that I DO have a good understaning of... Rectifying, regulating and filtering ..

I'm comfy with the CPU and V-card selecting.. I'm getting there on M-boards, but this RAM stuff is glazing my eyes..

Any opinions on MSI stuff ?
Last edited by fish-n-pilot on Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby candle_86 » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:13 pm

Well I personally for Mother boards recomend the DFI Lan Party boards, they are great little oc'ers
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Re: Been nearly 2 years.. time to upgrade..

Postby ctjoyce » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:47 pm

Buyer beware though. DFI boards have a chronic IDE RAID problem. So aslong as your not doing onboard RAID your gonna be set with a DFI board. Another thing to consider is the fact that they arn't passively cooled (personal pet peeve) so your gonna have to deal with a fan.

Cheers
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