Simviation Forums

I'm having a very typical problem in CFS2 mission writing. I Have successfully written the mission to the extent that the German BF110s and Fw200s take off ok, they follow the waypoints predictably, but when they get to the target, I cannot get any of them to attack the target ships. The Bf110s, which are the player's squadron fly around, but will not launch their bombs on the ships. I have the destination waypoints right over the ships, AND the action set to attack ships or search and destroy. I have tried both, any ideas?
Thanks, Tom

I am replying to myself. This question was raised in January and an answer from Indioblack was as follows:
"It is true that often the player aircraft flies perfectly, but the AI have trouble with ground attack.
One of the reasons is that the AI has a different way of controlling the aircraft than the player. The player uses stick and rudder, but the AI uses the trim controls. If the trim settings are tight for the player, the AI has stiff controls and cannot manouevre as well as it needs to. The solution is to slacken off the trim in the airfile, (in AirEd, it is entry 1101, Primary aerodynamics, Pitch Moment - Trim Range. The figure should usually be set around -0.6000), and then make sure the aircraft.cfg trim settings are at 1.00.
The player may now have difficulty performing fine tuning of trim, but the AI wil be able to manouevre spectacularly.

The other factor is to check the settings for Inertia in the airfile (AirEd 1001). If there are no settings, then add some from another aircraft, and then take the figures down in comparison to the ones that appear in the aircraft.cfg.
Lower inertia gives better manouevrability, which is what the ground attack aircraft need to make a pass without being scared of auguring-in. I believe it is this that makes them pull-off without dropping.
It's quite safe to have Moment of Inertia figures in the airfile that are different to the ones in the aircraft.cfg. In CFS2 these particular airfile entries are obeyed by the AI aircraft, whereas the aircraft .cfg entries are obeyed by the player aircraft.

Naturally the other requirements, of arriving at target at the correct speed and altitude, as mentioned above, also have to be met. Plus if you're in the same flight, you need to issue the attack commands at the appropriate moment, so that the AI can actually see the target that you are ordering them to attack.

It's actually a very complex set of parameters that you need to achieve. I wish it was easier. "

Thanks Indio, I will try this and let everyone know.
Tom

Here's some other things to consider:

I had the same problem. I wanted the enemy a/c to be
a very real a dangerous threat to my carriers, but could
never get them to "really" do it. So I never felt hard
pressed to get every bomber. Until I found a simple and
sublime solution to the problem.

1. Rookie bomber pilots are just that. If you want your
bomber pilots to actually hit the target, make sure they
are at least veterans.

2. Even though you have set a waypoint to be the
location of the strike (whether ships or static targets),
it is still not enough to put the strike triangle in the
general vicinity of the target. Have a look at the example
below. This will NOT make the bombers hit the target:



Note on the far left where it says,
"Target:

Thanks, I see what you mean, I will se if it works. I am beginning to believe nothing will work.
I'll let you know.

RabbitHawk this is something I did not know. Thank you for the information.

I"am proud of you all. You are all contributing to the forum.

We can all learn from each other. No one knows all the trick and tweaks of this game. I"am always learning something new.

Thank you again

James007

At last I found the solution. You have to zoom in a lot, as
I did in the example, and then move the strike
point triangle around a few times until the "Target: "
actually lists the "name" of the ship or static target, in
this case - "Alamance" Thus:


This way, the bombers will attack the ships "wherever"
they are located, irrespective of their movement.

Using this method, and the use of "veteran" bombers,
I created a mission where swarms of Kates and Vals
are attacking my carrier group. I had to be sure to get
almost every bomber in each enemy flight...or lose my
own carrier!!! I even had the same planes continue the
attack with guns on the destoyers, and lost 1 CV and
2 DDs because of it! Damn effective! What's really cool
is placing the Dive-Bombers at 5000 feet at the strike
point. Then they go screaming into the target. It's a
very difficult intercept. Very cool!

RabbitHawk

An important thing to consider is the type of bombers you are using.
Dive bombers will follow and attack a moving ship. Level bombers will not, whatever you do in your mission. They will keep bombing the point their are supposed to, even if the intended ship is no more present.
The way to solve that is to set the ships waypoints to "do not evade" and tune the mission such that the ship is at the place the bomb hits !

The way the AI behaves is in the first hand defined by the category defined in the DP file. there, has been a lot of tests in the community on that topic. A recent post at Simouthouse gave a good summary :
http://www.cfcforums.com/showthread.php?t=17855

Unit_Family
1=fighter
2=bomber
3=vehicle
4=Ground Unit or object
5=boat or ship
7=carrier

Category=
1 - aircraft fighter
2 - aircraft level bomber (B-24, He-111)
3 - aircraft dive bomber (Stuka, Dauntless, Val)
4 - aircraft torpedo bomber (Avenger, TBF)
5 - aircraft tactical bomber (A-20, Ju-88)
6 - aircraft strike (Fw-190F2, A-4; 2-engine nightfighters?)
7 - aircraft civil
8 - aircraft recon (Storch)
9 - aircraft transport (C-47)
10 - aircraft fighter-bomber (any fighter equipped with bombs)

Category codes for non-aircraft objects:
13 - ship aircraft carrier
14 - ship cruiser
15 - ship destroyer
16 - ship submarine
17 - ship battleship
18 - ship patrol
19 - ship auxiliary
21 - tracked vehicle
22 - wheeled vehicle
23 - train car
24 - amphibious vehicle
29 - artillery static
30 - mechanical equipment
31 - structure static
32 - factory
33 - non-target object
34 - runway

Guy

I didn't know about the level bombers not going after ships.
The closest I ever came was having Ju-88s armed with
torpedoes going after the Illustrious (they sank her a couple
times too!). But then I suspect the Ju-88s are listed as
Tactical Bombers - Category=5.

I haven't done this because, historically, level bombers were
largely ineffective against ships. The aircraft may release
the bombs on target, but by the time the bombs arrive, the
ship has moved/swerved away from it's earlier position. So
taking a B-24 or B-17 against a ship isn't a good idea unless
theships are swinging at anchor or in port.

But B-25s and Beaufighters were extraordinarily effective
at ship-killing.  I'll bet CFS2 will permit them to hunt down
a non-static target.

I haven't done this because, historically, level bombers were
largely ineffective against ships.

That isn't fully correct. B-24 and B-17 performed skip bombing at mast top height in the Pacific with great success.

Guy

True enough, but in their primary role of high-altitude,
level bombing they had poor luck with bombing mobile
targets like ships.  They were much better used against
static (ships in port, airbases) and strategic targets.

Thanks, GuyBoullenger for the info on the dp categories.
I had my own list which I will list tomorrow, I have to dig it out and after a 11 hour day, cannot stay awake long enough to do it tonight, but I will try changeing these settings. The alignment of the waypoint points over the target ships did not get them to drop their dog gone bombs, but it did get them to follow the ships for awhile... oh well, I will keep trying. This mission is historical and will be neat as heck as an early 1940 mission, so I hope I can make it work.
Thanks, Tom

Do not forget guys that you need to be aware of the altitude and speed of the bombers involved in the mission.

If you have them flying too fast they will miss their target or if they are to high for their dp category they will not attack or they will miss they target.

Keep trying and maybe you will figure it out. If you do please tell us how you didi it.

Remember to make them veterans or ace to increase their abilities.

James007

Thanks, GuyBoullenger for the info on the dp categories.
I had my own list which I will list tomorrow, I have to dig it out and after a 11 hour day, cannot stay awake long enough to do it tonight, but I will try changeing these settings. The alignment of the waypoint points over the target ships did not get them to drop their dog gone bombs, but it did get them to follow the ships for awhile... oh well, I will keep trying. This mission is historical and will be neat as heck as an early 1940 mission, so I hope I can make it work.
Thanks, Tom

If you are looking for an example of how it can work, one of the Milne bay missions involves a flight of B-17 and a flight of RAAF Hudsons bombing two japanese destroyers with success.
To tune the mission, I had to try it and see if the ships were in advance or late versus the bombs, and adjust their speeds such that they meet ! ... and it worked.

Guy

The Bf110s, which are the player's squadron fly around, but will not launch their bombs on the ships.

What Me110 are you using ? Paul Strany's ? With their 1% air file ?

If thats it, then you certainly have to modify the air and cfg file. I am currently building a mission involving Me 110 as AI aircrafts, and they behave quite badly as AI. It is the case of most 1% based flight dynamics models,BTW. You'd better adapt a stock flight dynamics for them (P38 ?). Not intellectually correct but much more realistic in the way they behave.

Guy

Guys today I tested CFS2 on Bombing runs and here are my conclusions. I have been flying a mission for the INJ mimicking their attack on Sir Lanka in April 1942.

In the mission I escort a group of Kates to the port and back to the carriers. Well the mission went well as I was able to defend the Kates from the swarming Hurricaines sucessfuly, but started to notice that the Kates would not sink any ships no matter what I did.

I tried RabbitHawk method and and still did not fix the problem.

I decided to create  a mission to test how the AI Bombers really work. I flew as a wingman to a formation of AI Kates. I made it as a strike on a small convoy composed of a few destroyers and cargo ships.

The first time I made the ships pawn to close to the bombers and they where almost all shot down before they could execute the bombing attack.

The next time I corrected that by not spawning them at all but by placing the bombers closer to their target.

I also slow the ships speed down some what. The next time the Bombers flew by the ships and keeped on flying.

Now I was getting fustrated and ready to give up.

I decided to change the formation thinking that would help. I change it to Finger four.

Well I decided to stick out and finnish the mission even if the Kates left the area of contact with the enemy.

Well this what happen.
The kates split their formation as they approach the enemy convoy to divert the ships AAA. Then they flew past the convoy and left the area for a few miles away. Then to my surprise they turn around and flew right back into the convoy from different angle.

It seem they where looking for a more effective angle to make their attack more effective. They attacked with gusto strikes where registerd. It looked like the  torpedos just run under the ships.

I was disappointed one more time. Then I realize that the ships I was using where the CFS1 generic ships for use in CFS2.

I soon as change the ships to the one made by the communitty. The mission worked like charm after that.

The moral story of this post is for us to get now the Ai better and  to learn from each other.

I used tips form others in order to acomplish what a wanted.

So the Ai do attack the enemies ships and ground objests you just got to understand it.

I hope we have learn something together.

James007

Ah ! That's another trick. AI Torpedo bombers allways make a first pass before coming back to launch their fish. I had the same with the Beauforts or Beaufighters.

Guy