P40 Two-seater/Trainer?

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks for reiterating, Hagar.
How silly I am.

By the way. You say "qualified Spitfire display pilot'.
Obviously this is some kind of qualification to fly at exhibitions and airshows etc, where there is an increase danger of injuring or killing spectators etc.

But say, for instance, if you had a PPL and were fortunate enough to also have a WWII fighter with the HP of the original. Would you be allowed to fly it privately?
Of course, it would be silly to try without some serious instruction and training, but...........would you be allowed, or would you need to be "checked out" in this type of plane first?

[Hagar]

By the way. You say "qualified Spitfire display pilot'.
Obviously this is some kind of qualification to fly at exhibitions and airshows etc, where there is an increase danger of injuring or killing spectators etc.

But say, for instance, if you had a PPL and were fortunate enough to also have a WWII fighter with the HP of the original. Would you be allowed to fly it privately?
Of course, it would be silly to try without some serious instruction and training, but...........would you be allowed, or would you need to be "checked out" in this type of plane first?

Very good question. In the UK, all display pilots have to pass a strict assessment & possess a display pilot's licence before being allowed to perform in public. This is carried out on an annual basis. I'm not sure on the current regulations but the PPL is restricted to certain categories (ratings), usually single, twin, multi-engine & instrument ratings. I'm not sure if the power or performance of the aircraft is taken into account. The holder of a single-engined PPL would need appropriate instruction before taking the conversion test to a twin-engine rating. Instruction & the rating exam itself can be carried out in either their own or a hired aircraft. The test is carried out by a CAA approved examiner. A powerful high-performance fighter like the Spitfire is obviously a completely different prospect to the single-engined Cessnas & Pipers commonly used by flying clubs. If you're fortunate to own one & possess a valid single-engine rated PPL I suppose it would be legal to fly it without further instruction. This would obviously be very stupid & a conversion course or at least a couple of check flights in a Harvard or one of the 2-seater versions of the actual type would be the best way of doing it. This would depend on the individual pilot's experience. The fact that most vintage fighters are taildraggers is another consideration as these are particularly difficult to handle on the ground & when landing for the average private pilot. A taildragger course on something like a Chipmunk might be necessary before going on to the meaty stuff with those huge engines & props out front.

The fact that there were very few 2-seat trainer versions of operational fighters during WWII was the reason for development of high-performance intermediate trainers like the Harvard & Miles Master. Before these were introduced the typical rookie RAF pilots would go straight from a Tiger Moth or Magister elementary trainer with fixed gear on to the operational types. They were expected to fly a powerful, complex single-seater after a short ground briefing & demonstration of the cockpit.
This was one of the reasons for the high casualty rate among rookie fighter pilots in the BoB.

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks Mate,
I presumed that it may be "legal" but of course, very stupid without, as I said, some serious instruction and check-out.

You mention the high casualties due to inexperience in high performance craft during the BoB.
I recall, in the movie, a new pilot arrives and Michael Caine's character asks how much "time" he has got, and he answers (something like - not sure of the exact hours) 8 hrs on Hurricane and 3 hrs on Spits. Caine just shakes his head and tells the kid to get into a plane for a lesson. (dakka...dakka...dakka....dakka.......lol )

This seems a ridiculous amount considering his basic training, prior to the Hurri and Spit would have been about 10 hrs.
I know they had to greatly shorten the program but, as you say, many a young pilot probably died because of that necessity.  :-[

[SilverFox441]

There were also a number of "non-standard" two seat conversion carried out in the field. Mostly done on older war-weary airframes they were used as Sqdn hacks.

Perversely, the Sqdn hacks had the best chance of surviving the war and many were converted back to original.

[Professor Brensec]

Something that I've often wondered, which Silverfox's post has freshened in my mind.

All airframes (far as I know) have a "service life" due to metal fatigue etc.
Once an airframe has reached this point, where fatigue, in the form of micro-cracks and stress points are evident, is there a way of "saving" the airframe or does it have to be replaced in its' entirety?
Can just a "portion" of the frame be replaced?

Bearing all this in mind, how many actual "original WWII" airframes are there still flying, and what kind of testing (X-rays and other methods) are required to ensure that such an "old" frame (which could conceivably have been pushed well past its' limits during dogfights etc, during the War) is not just going to fall apart in the middle of a flight?

[Hagar]

I once saw a very interesting TV documentary covering the rebuild of the Grace Spitfire from start to finish. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it was called or if it's available privately. I believe the project took several years to complete, most of the work being done by Nick Grace himself, encouraged by Carolyn. I do remember that they retained as many original parts as possible, only using new materials where absolutely essential or for safety reasons. Every rivet in the airframe had to be carefully replaced with modern types as these were of a magnesium alloy which corrodes over a period of time. When you think about it, these wartime aircraft were only expected to last for comparatively few hours in service. If they were not destroyed in action they would be replaced by improved types on a regular basis. I'm sure the manufacturers never expected to see them still actively flying some 60 years later.

Before I retired, Spitfire restorer Charles Church would visit our company from time to time. I obviously made a point of chatting to him whenever possible. He told me that if I had a genuine manufacturer's ID plate, he could build me a Spitfire to go with it.

[SilverFox441]

You can "Zero-time" an airframe if you have the time and money.

It is an extensive procedure that involves basically stripping the plane down to the raw component stage and replacing/rebuilding everything.

Some "authentic" warbirds have been rebuilt from the ID plate stage. They have had over 90% of the compenets replaced in a single rebuild and are still considered authentic due to the original serial number plates.

[Felix/FFDS]

INteresting comments - I've been to the Kissimmee Warbird Restoration Museum - where rebuilding/remaking warbirds is their specialty (especially bombers) .. they too, use original components where at all possible and they can be refurbished, but in the case of wrecks, ... a lot is reverse-engineered new build.

As to the "originality" of warbirds today?  I dare say that even the best of the restorations are model Bs... "bitzer here, bitzfromdere..."

You can "Zero-time" an airframe if you have the time and money.

It is an extensive procedure that involves basically stripping the plane down to the raw component stage and replacing/rebuilding everything.

Some "authentic" warbirds have been rebuilt from the ID plate stage. They have had over 90% of the compenets replaced in a single rebuild and are still considered authentic due to the original serial number plates.

[Professor Brensec]

Thanks people.
As I suspected, it seems that the WWII "originals" that are flying today would have very little of their original components still fitted.

I recall a net site that was on the Web a few years ago. It was before my "sortie" into CFS, about 3 or 4 years ago, so even though the love and wonder about WWII aircraft was there, the outlet for these types of discussions and opportunities for learning weren't available to me yet.

It was dedicated to the rebuild and restoration of a Spitfire (Mk V I think, but not sure), being done by two blokes in Melbourne. They had Pics showing progress and a list of parts that they still required. Some of the parts they had on their list were obviously intended to be obtained from wrecks etc that may be laying around somewhere in the world. For instance, I clearly recall the inclusion of "1 off Map case". I think it was either a steel or (maybe) leather case that fitted on the side wall of the cockpit for storage of the pilots maps.

These blokes were obviously looking for the most "original" product they could manage to put together, yet I saw pics of jigs they had made up for the "manufacture and fitment" of some wing gussets (don't know the proper name - the numerous pieces of superstructure that are at right angles to the rails?). A very "original" part of the airframe.

I suppose a line must be drawn at a point where a plane can be considered "original". Yet your strictest "purist" may consider a paint job as an "abomination"......lol
So I suppose someone has drawn that line at the only point at which authentication can be confirmed - the authentic ID plates themselves. Although I can't help think it's kind of cheating..........lol.

Thanks  ;D

[Felix/FFDS]

Look at it this way - how many B-52s flying today are "originals" - are they considered "rebuilds" ??

[SilverFox441]

I know that at one time the Canadian Warplane Heritage was smelting down the aluminium from hard to replace parts to re-use the metal...they thought it made the plane more "original" if the same exact metal was used in the rebuild...with just enough new added to make up for loses.

Of course, most rebuilders don't have a couple of the largest metals plants on the continent just down the road.

[BHOFMX]

On "wings discovery channel" there
was a program about a fw190 that
was "rebuilt" about 75% replaced.
The pilot that last flew the plane was
still alive , living in Berlin, He came to
Texas to see the plane, It didn't matter
if only one part was orignial, it mattered
that people cared and had done what
they had to do to keep a piece of
history alive

Bhofmx