P40 Two-seater/Trainer?

[ozzy72]

I came across this during a search I did for a good P40 pic a while ago. I posted it in a previous thread disussing the P40, but no-one in that thread knew much about this particular plane.

Does anyone know where this two-seater is or anything about it. Were there any trainers converted during the War? etc

[BFMF]

I didn't realize there was a 2 seater model

[Deputy]

'Tis a trainer. They rarely made two-seaters unless they had to - a trainer had to have two seats. . . . .  ::)

[ozzy72]

[quote]'Tis a trainer. They rarely made two-seaters unless they had to - a trainer had to have two seats. . . . .

[Rifleman]

Follow this link, there is mention of two trainer variants

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p40warhawk.html

[Hagar]

[quote]

I'm thinking it may have been converted recently (in the last 20-30 years) for joyflights or just privately taking up friends etc. Like that Lady in England that has the Spitfire trainer. She has a two year waiting list for joyflights that cost a fortune.
It would be a great way to make your plane pay for itself.

[Ivan]

Hagar, LOADS of early IL-2's were converted to two seaters in the war to incorporate a tail gunner.

result: most dangerous job in the russian airforce, because the armor wasn't that good on the rear side as it was on the front side

[Hagar]

Thanks Ivan. I'm very interested in all this stuff & did read something about those IL-2s a while ago. I often wonder just how reliable some of this information is. It's great to have confirmation from your part of the world.  ;)

[ozzy72]

Great link, Rifle.

I've seen the Warbirds site before but must have missed that bit. I wonder how many of the trainers they mention were actually built.
In another thread on the forum today, the "Most immortal" thread, I chose the P40 as my vote, for the reasons I mentioned there. I must add the total production of 15,000 which certainly puts it well above many of the popular fighters except the most prolific.

The P51 section in that site makes for interesting reading too.

P.S. They mention the P51C having a 'Bulging' canopy as opposed to the "teardrop" canopy of the P51D. Does anyone have a shot of the "C' with this canopy they mention?

You gotta love this shot, though!

[ozzy72]

Hi Hagar, I've been looking into the Soviet Spitfires for a little while now, and it appears tragically that no more survive. I do have a few poor quality B&W shots, and some artists impressions, but v.little is known about how the conversions were done (beyond the basic chop), and even less is known about the pilots!

Alas

Ozzy

[Rifleman]

Brensec, here are a few different canopy profiles for you to peruse........not sure how accurate they are, but personally I have seen all these types before, including the "Malcolm" stye on the razorback..........
http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/p-51_mustang_sideviews.asp

And from this link, I think I can surmise that the bubble-topped razor-back is the B/C model that you have in question............

P.S. They mention the P51C having a 'Bulging' canopy as opposed to the "teardrop" canopy of the P51D. Does anyone have a shot of the "C' with this canopy they mention?

http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51Production.shtml

[Felix/FFDS]

Point of information - the IL-2 initially started out as a single seater, and while some (number unknown?) were converted to two-seaters in the field, the IL-2M was the standard production two seater - with gunner.

Anecdotal sidebar:  ... most gunners supposedly were drawn from convicts, promised their freedom if they survived x number of missions.... but if they were close to completing the number, they woud be transferred. ... apparently IL-2M gunner mortality was high, and IL-2 losses happened when the enemy fighters realized the gunner was dead/incapacitated, because the gun would flop down... a spring mechanism was devised to hold the gun up...

Dedicated dual-control versions of the "Sturmovik" were designated U-Il-2 or Il-2U ...


Of course, totally anecedotal, and I can't even remember where I read the stuff, but...

Hagar, LOADS of early IL-2's were converted to two seaters in the war to incorporate a tail gunner.

result: most dangerous job in the russian airforce, because the armor wasn't that good on the rear side as it was on the front side

[HawkerTempest5]

According to my quick bit of reserch, there are only two two seat P-40's remaining. The only one I can find out anything about is the sole surviving factory built TP-40N-6-CU belonging to Mr. Kermit Weeks. This plane is just coming to the end of a total rebuild, so the one in your photo is most likely the other one. Your aircraft must have had a second seat fitted some time during it's life but I can't find any details just now. I'll keep looking.

[Professor Brensec]

I'd be interested to know if it is a "pillion" seat or an "operational" training type seat.

P.S. The lady in England who has the Two-seater Spit, Carolyn Grace. Is hers' merely a "passenger seat" or does it have full controls?  ;D

[Hagar]

[quote]
P.S. The lady in England who has the Two-seater Spit, Carolyn Grace. Is hers' merely a "passenger seat" or does it have full controls?