What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

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What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Webb » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:32 pm

How I Learned to Start Worrying and Fear the Bomb

Five Myths About Nuclear Weapons, by Ward Wilson, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 187 pages, $22.00.

Baby boomers grew up with nuclear bomb drills, premised on the interesting idea that plywood desks could provide adequate shielding from a radioactive apocalypse. That dubious notion has disappeared, but other assumptions limp on. In Five Myths About Nuclear Weapons, Ward Wilson, a senior fellow at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies, tackles widespread misunderstandings associated with the world's nuclear arsenals.

Wilson carefully analyzes Japan's surrender in World War II and several supposed instances of nuclear deterrence at work, upending many accepted narratives. When he strays beyond history, however, his arguments become murky. His lapses into the abstract can be forgiven, though, in light of his thought-provoking breakdown of the reasons behind the development and spread of nuclear weapons.

Did Japan surrender in World War II in direct response to the atomic bombs detonated over Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Wilson suggests it isn't so. He assembles the correspondence of high-ranking officials to indicate that Japan's leaders were far less impressed with atomic warfare than they are portrayed in retrospect. The destruction of a city was by no means unique—Hiroshima's obliteration followed the destruction of 66 prior cities through conventional means. Those other staggering losses had not prompted surrender.

According to Wilson, the Soviet Union played a more decisive role than nuclear weapons in concluding World War II. Japan's leaders had prolonged a doomed war effort in hopes that inflicting staggering losses on the United States might lead to a conditional surrender. If America lost heart, the thinking went, Japan could feasibly keep some of its conquests, or at least spare its leaders from the same fate as the German war criminals already on trial in Nuremberg.

Those hopes were crushed when the Soviet Union, hitherto neutral in the Pacific Theater, declared war against Japan. Japan's entire military was already dedicated to forestalling an American invasion. The prospect of Russians advancing through the empire's unguarded back door meant imminent and unquestioned defeat.

Wilson provides a coherent explanation for why official declarations from the emperor and his regime nonetheless point to atomic bombs, and not Russians, in forcing their surrender. Japan's rulers had maintained a doomed war effort for months, lied to the public, and led their country through years of disastrous warfare that ruined the economy and left millions dead. An unforeseen weapon of unfathomable destruction provided a convenient rationale for ending the war.

Wilson moves on to question the efficacy of nuclear deterrence in crises. During the Cuban missile crisis, he notes, President John F. Kennedy risked mutual atomic annihilation with the Russians. Even before Kennedy's risky blockade, Soviet missiles could have reached American soil. The president chanced unspeakable destruction over political posturing, not actual military significance. Wilson deftly asks, “If fear of nuclear war prevents leaders from taking steps that might lead to nuclear war, then why wasn't Kennedy deterred?” ...


Interesting theory but Kennedy didn't win the Cold War. Reagan did. Reagan wasn't deterred and put huge numbers of nukes on the USSR borders. The USSR went broke trying to keep up.

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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby expat » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:18 am

Webb wrote:How I Learned to Start Worrying and Fear the Bomb

The destruction of a city was by no means unique—Hiroshima's obliteration followed the destruction of 66 prior cities through conventional means. Those other staggering losses had not prompted surrender.



I think it could be argued that one aircraft carrying one bomb destroying a city in the blink of an eye when previous to this it was many hundreds of aircraft dropping many hundreds of bombs over in some cases many hours would very much catch the attention of those in command. Ward Wilson is underestimating the situation.

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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Strategic Retreat » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:39 pm

I believe the Russian problem was WAY more present in the Americans' thoughts than the Japanese, even if it SHOULDN'T have been so. Russia had the ingrained habit of not leaving the conquered lands anymore, once they got there, and had Stalin and his army got on Japanese soil, EVEN TODAY we would probably have in Japan something akin at what happened in Vietnam and still stands in Korea.

Not to add that for the USA, Japan, like Italy in the Mediterranean, was a convenient stronghold to have between Russia and the rest of the non communist Pacific, in the years after the shaky alliance against the Nazis would come apart, so pounding on the accelerator for an early surrendering of Japan I believe was a primary concern in Washington.

It is difficult NOW postulate on the real weight the Russian's declaration of war on Japan had on the surrender of Japan, yet the recently discovered attempt at coup some of the military tried on the emperor to prevent him to air the surrendering speech through the national radio makes me think it, at least about the majority of the Japanese forces commanders, was quite small.

If anything, on those in Japan who could still think beyond the "glorious death in battle rather than surrendering", it MAY have compounded, but I do not believe for a significant margin, seen the horrible shortage of such normal and forward-thinking people in Japan, at the time.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Webb » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:28 pm

The Soviet Union/Russia and China don't have much influence in Vietnam or Korea.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Strategic Retreat » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:42 pm

Wasn't talking about political alignments. Simply the situation would have become maybe different on some accounts, but hauntingly similar.

And anyway... to say that the PAST situation of Vietnam (before the end of the Vietnam conflict, I mean) was not brought up by influence from Russia... it's quite the major statement.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Webb » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:19 pm

That's news to me. The Soviet Union opposed America everywhere but it was also in conflict with China.

China was happy to support North Korea but the puppet governments got out of its control (much as American puppet governments tended to do). China has little to no influence over North Korea's insaneocracry.

Vietnam was more like providing support to a "fellow" communist government. Vietnam was a civil war that just got way out of control - WW3 by proxy. South Vietnam was supported by western interests and North Vietnam by the Chinese. Once the country was unified, developed a stable economy and was no longer a target for military expansion it didn't need China.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Strategic Retreat » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:03 pm

Yet you cannot deny that at the time, the meddling of the USA in both war theaters brought... "unofficial support" to the "other faction" from the Russians.

ANYWAY, and before this goes on and maybe gets even worse, when I made that comparison I was not, repeat NOT, trying to delve into politics and belief alignments. I was simply saying that the situation would have remembered in a way the problems in the Vietnam of thirty and more years ago and still present in Korea. Full stop.

Of course differences would have existed. The imaginary scenario of a Japan invaded for an half of its area, more or less, by invasion and occupation Russian troops does not find any real counterpart in this reality and timeline, and could have had all sort of unpleasant repercussions, up to an actual war between Russia and USA... but that's simple speculation on what could have happened.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Bass » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:31 am

In my simply mind, the killing ended WW2, just like WW1.
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Re: What really ended WW2 - the Bomb or the Russians?

Postby Strategic Retreat » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:35 pm

Bass wrote:In my simply mind, the killing ended WW2, just like WW1.


Maybe in Europe. With all good intentions, applying myself with every ounce of will I can muster, releasing all the brakes to the multiple levels of my suspension of disbelief and giving it all the boost I can, I still can't really get my mind around the philosophy of the Japanese military of the times.

I guess to know I should have been born Japanese, in Japan, in those years.

Bless the Lord I wasn't.
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