It's good to talk...

[ozzy72]

And 50 years ago today the first undersea cable between Britain and the US went live and tripled the amount of phone calls that were possible between the two countries! In the first year of operations the two armoured cables carried over 300,000 phone calls at a cost of about 3 quid a minute How times have changed

[expat]

Now when calling the UK from Germany it costs me 1.9 cents (

[ozzy72]

I think the Germans are probably still angry with us as we spent 3 years more bombing them in WWII and three years more shooting at them in WWI than the Americans

[expat]

I think the Germans are probably still angry with us as we spent 3 years more bombing them in WWII and three years more shooting at them in WWI than the Americans

Mind you, the Americans are trying to make up for lost time, blue on blue seems to be on the up.

Matt

[dcunning30]

Mind you, the Americans are trying to make up for lost time, blue on blue seems to be on the up.

Matt

Naaa, we just don't take to kindly to people doing mass murder on our citizens.  I suppose we should just adopt the UN model and just talk about it and adopt resolutions that we have no intentions to enforce.  

[Brett_Henderson]

I have to ask and risk ridicule. What's "blue on blue" ?

[ozzy72]

A blue on blue is when you shoot your own side. It happens all to often in war. Alas the Americans seem to have a far higher level of incidence of these wee cock-ups than most.
More British troops were killed by Americans than Iraqis in the first Gulf War.... Of course with a larger number of troops the number of incidents will be higher but the percentage figures aren't all that encouraging either.
If you read many WWII British accounts they'll tell you that all too frequently British planes were attacked by USAAF. So much so that most RAF types (e.g. Matt and myself included) believe that US pilots don't learn aircraft recognition!
As for dcunnings comment I can't make head nor tail of it as we're refering to older incidents and shooting your mates... methinks he didn't read the comment clearly or didn't understand what a blue on blue means.
Friendly-fire, what a SICK term

[Brett_Henderson]

Ok.. good. I'm glad I asked.

The friendly-fire incidents during the first Gulf War did get my attention. A lot of anti-American sentiment was stirred up over that; most of it coming FROM military despising Americans. Not that I like to give credit to wet-noodle, worthless, propaganda mongers like Phil Donahue.. but he did a particularly critical show about it. It was pathetically staged, complete with a mutilated soldier who had survived a friendly-fire helicopter attack on an APC. The show could have easily been about how FEW such attacks there were; considering the conditions and "state" of the fast-moving fronts. However.. unrealistic military haters like Donahue threw common sense and meaningful data aside.. to make themselves feel good.

I'm not a WWII historian, but my brother is. I've never heard that there was an abnormally high rate of USAF on RAF, accidental shoot-downs. My brother had though.. and  he agreed with your statement. Not only were there more Americans doing the killing.. he added that they were doing it with more efficient killing machines.. under more numerous and different conditions.. more often.. and at longer ranges and for longer periods of time. Unfortunately.. when you try to send that many pilots out.. maybe some training has to be compromised... Including maybe, aircraft recognition ? Or maybe the training in that regard was lacking to begin with ?  I don't know. You've got me curious now (my brother too).

[ozzy72]

Alas Brett in war these things do happen. Britain has had some horrific blue on blues in the latest Iraqi campaign with British soldiers shooting their own.
I think the American issue stems from an over-reliance on technology and alas that is all to fallable. Also they seem to have some problems with intelligence, things like "This is a British controlled sector do NOT enter!" and then they wander in guns blazing. I think most of the incidents in Afghanistan have come down to poor or non-existant intelligence of the situation on the ground. Still better than the Soviets when they shot down a Korean 747 and then tried to claim it was a spy-plane What a cock-up that was.
Alas as long as we keep having wars these things will happen. Heck even the opposition have it happen. The first time the IRA tried to use an RPG-7 they managed to wipe out three of the operators. It appears nobody had explained about back-blast and they tried to fire from inside a van
When will we all learn just to get along?

[Hagar]

[quote]Unfortunately.. when you try to send that many pilots out.. maybe some training has to be compromised... Including maybe, aircraft recognition ? Or maybe the training in that regard was lacking to begin with ?

[Brett_Henderson]

This topic makes me ponder that 800 pound gorilla.

I can't comment on European military, but I can tell you that post Viet Nam, post draft of any kind, the United States military slipped into a mostly deserved reputation that it was made up of the country's "un-finest".  It's HYPER-hypocritical of me to say much; as I never served, myself... but it didn't take much awareness to see that the U.S. military had a disproportionate percentage of; high-school drop-outs, un-wed fathers, and borderline criminals and just plain old "not too bright" soldiers.

During the mostly peaceful, two decades twixt Viet Nam and Gulf War I.. everyone just kind of accepted that fact.

Right now, fortunately (and unfortunately as it takes a war or two to make people sit up and take notice), there's a palpable sense around this country, that military service is indeed the honorable endeavor that it has always been.

I never was a fan of the draft.. But (here goes my hypocracy again), I do believe that every able-bodied male should serve two years upon graduating high-school (or their 18th birthday).  I think. especially in the age of high-tech weaponry, being a soldier is no longer  the job of last-choice.. or last resort... and a country worth living in, is owed the service of its best.

*putting my asbestos suit on now*

[Hagar]

[quote]I never was a fan of the draft.. But (here goes my hypocracy again), I do believe that every able-bodied male should serve two years upon graduating high-school (or their 18th birthday).

[Brett_Henderson]

It's a complicated issue for sure. The tricky thing about the multi-cultural aspect (a whole other issue *ugh*) is that the reasons that bring about war are going to happen.. and people are going to die in these wars; whether or not there's a national service; and whether or not a citizen feels culturally bound to defend the country in which he's living.

There are two ways to look at it. Either the culturally diverse need to acknowledge that part of the reason that their diversity flourishes, is because of the culture that they need to defend... OR.. If they don't want to take on the responsibilites of a culture, then maybe it shouldn't be quite so diverse

[Hagar]

[quote]One of the reasons I don't mind being as old as I am.. is that there is likely to still be some semblance of patriotism left, before I leave this world