Really, an amazing website...

[C]

I've only just been directed to this site, but having browsed it for ten minutes or so, I'd be prepared to call it a masterpiece of historical data collection, which has taken over 10 years...

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

A database of RAF bombers lost during WWII, with search functions etc.

To give an idea, there a 20 losses linked on each page...

...there are 207 pages covering the Avro Lancaster, 120 on the Halifax and 85 on the Stirling alone...

Shocking when you see it laid out in front of you...

[Ijineda]

Is there also an entry how many german civilians each of those bombers killed?

[Scorpiоn]

That would be unpatriotic.

[ozzy72]

Can you quantify which planes bombs did what?
We all know that what was done was terrible! However it was only retaliation for what the Germans were doing to Britain and Malta and the rest of the world! Nobody is blameless in war...

[Ijineda]

retaliation for what the Germans were doing to Britain and Malta

Dont remember any british city being destroyed like the german ones, especially dresden, hamburg and n

[ozzy72]

How comes Stalin, the worst dictator of all times, is still treated like a hero in Russia

'Cos people are dumb and the propoganda machine was effective!
As for Harris being a war criminal I'd disagree! He was an officer doing an unpleasant and difficult job. The opinion was that Germany had to be stopped, not merely forced to surrender! Ask the millions who were murdered by German officers in places like Belsen... be careful throwing stones when in a glass house
I mean if you want to talk terrorism how about the E.German government, especially the Stasi, supporting various terrorist organisations against western democracies?
Perspective is one thing, paranoid nationalism another!

[C]

[quote]

Dont remember any british city being destroyed like the german ones, especially dresden, hamburg and n

[Ijineda]

In the coventry attack of november 14th of November 1940 (which was aimed at the R&R armament factorys, a military target therefore), 572 people died as the factory was situated in the middle of this town.

In the Dresden attack of 13th and 14th February 1945 (which was aimed only to kill a maximum of civilian lives; british and american authorities knew that this town was overcrowded by the refugees streaming in from the east), about 100.000 people were killed.

In the Hamburg attack end of July 1943 (Operation name: Gomorrha; the city should be eliminated as a whole). 45.000 people were killed.

Need I say more?

[ozzy72]

Read up on the seige of Malta and tell me THAT wasn't an attempt to sink the island!
More bombs landed on Malta every 2 months than in the entire first year of the Blitz!
Glass houses and stones, remember

[myshelf]

you can't measure past events with today's moral scale. you have to apply contemporary standards.

in WW II trying to break civilian support for the respective governments with carpet bombings of cities was acceptable millitary acts.

the allies were better at it, but it happened on both sides.

[ozzy72]

I agree completely myshelf. Alas a lot of modern historians are trying to impose their values on history and turning things around until nothing makes sense.
Having seen what war can do and now living in a former Eastern Bloc country I have to say I've reached one great conclusion. Shoot ALL the politicians and religious extremists and the rest of us could get on really well without any serious trouble whatsoever! And the terrible thing is that that is THE truth

[C]

As Bomber Harris said,

...the Nazis, having sown the wind, would reap the whirlwind.

I'm afraid it was on the cards. Having attacked (most large) British cities, the German high command sentenced its own people to retaliation on a (much) larger scale.

War's war. Not a nice business, but by 1943-44 I think most of the world were rather fed up with Germany's ambitions...

Oh, and thanks for making what was a thread showing a very good new website political. This chaps put in a lot of hard work to collate the data of the force whose losses were second only to the submariners, and who received no recognition from their own government after the war. Thanks a lot.

[dcunning30]

Worth repeating!

you can't measure past events with today's moral scale. you have to apply contemporary standards.

[Scorpiоn]

To be honest I think everything said so far is true.

But alas, winners and history books and all that.

[myshelf]

To be honest I think everything said so far is true.

But alas, winners and history books and all that.

i wonder what history books would say about stalin if wouldn't have been forced to fight against germany?