Flying the 109...anyone?

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Does anybody know of anybody who (preferably still alive) could answer my questions on the 109?
I don't mean sum bowl cut silulator pilot who has never entered a realy aeroplane but a living veteran.
Any ideas? (I've found 5 Gunther Ralls in the Telefonbuch....5 letters..4 "get out of my house" international phone calls....)


A.

[ATI_7500]

Get Gunther Rall's biography.

And one of my relatives was a 190 and 262 pilot. But he passed away a few years ago. As most of the Luftwaffe aces did.

[Professor Brensec]

Try this website, mate.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/

A great site with a short war bio on a number of the German Aces (virtually all of whom flew the 109). Select the "Experten" link.

I read one of the bios recently and the author (the website owner) credited the actual 'Experten' with being very nice and obliging in allowing him to ask him questions etc.

I just don't recall which 'Experten' it was, You'll have to have a look. But you could email the website owner and ask him for an email contact or ask him to do it for you. he seems like a really obliging bloke.

I'd hurry. He's pretty old...........

[Felix/FFDS]

Depending on which 109 version you're interested in, and the type of question you want answered, there's at least one 109E flying in the US West Coast, and a few others either in the works or recently (in time spanning terms, that is) "retired" from flying duties.

[Professor Brensec]

I had a little lookie-pooh.

Erich Rudorffer (222 Victories) is alive but doesn't discuss his Luftwaffe career.

Walter Schuck (206) is still alive but no mention of his helping with the website info.

Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert (174) still alive but ill, as of 2001. Again no mention of assiting with info.

Gunther Schack (174) alive and well but refuses to talk about his career. Sent an autographed picture to the author but declined to answer questions.

Thats the ones from the 'Day' Fighters. Maybe it's one from the 'Night' Fighters I recall????  ;D

[Woodlouse2002]

It's hard enough to get veterens to talk at the best of times and I don't think being on the losing side helps on that front at all. If you can find one who's willing to talk the fine. Just don't hassle them.

[Hagar]

I found that reading "I Flew for the Fuhrer" by Heinz Knoke gives a pretty good idea of what flying the Bf 109 was like. He flew all the basic variants in combat.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to phone or write to these veterans without going through a 3rd party. Some are happy to talk about their experiences while others would prefer to forget them.

[Professor Brensec]

This is why I suggested the Website owner. He obviously has 'contacts' or at least knows the correct way about approaching such things.

Where would you get the email or addresses to write anyway? I suppose if it's someone who's written a book, you could go through the publisher.



Check out a website about the movie "The Battle of Britain". There would have to be info on the names of the pilots (or aircraft owners) who lent thier services.

The first question I'd ask is, "How the hell did you see anything". Look at the size of the windscreen and the overall design of the canopy. It's a wonder they could see where they were going, let alone sight anything with a gunsight or tracer!!!




Schuck (in cockpit) and Rall in 1997

[Hagar]

Where would you get the email or addresses to write anyway? I suppose if it's someone who's written a book, you could go through the publisher.

If I'm reading Andrew's topic correctly he's been going through the phone book trying to contact them. I'm not convinced this is a good idea.

The first question I'd ask is, "How the hell did you see anything". Look at the size of the windscreen and the overall design of the canopy. It's a wonder they could see where they were going, let alone sight anything with a gunsight or tracer!!!

I don't think anyone who hasn't seen one realises quite how small the Bf 109 is. The tiny cockpit has one advantage - the pilot becomes part of the aeroplane. Most Spitfire pilots will tell you that it fitted like a glove. Control was more a question of thinking about it & the aircraft would do it. This must have been very handy in combat.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Wow....so many responses.....
I was trying to find Spit pilots as wel...(there seem to be more winners around than well...um...losers..... )

Thanks all,

A.

[Hagar]

I'm not sure there are any winners in war. They were all brave young men doing their duty.

There's plenty of literature around these days where you can find almost anything you wish. If I had some idea of the information you want I could probably recommend something. The alternative is to contact a museum or warbird restorer who actually flies these aircraft. If you ask nicely it's possible they could answer your questions but they tend to be busy people. Unfortunately some of the most experienced & respected ones like Mark Hanna are no longer with us. He was sadly killed in a landing accident with a Buchon, the Spanish-built version of the Bf 109G, like many Luftwaffe pilots. I believe I'm correct in saying that more Bf 109 pilots were killed in take-off & landing accidents than in combat. These old warbirds can still bite.

[C]

Depending on which 109 version you're interested in, and the type of question you want answered, there's at least one 109E flying in the US West Coast, and a few others either in the works or recently (in time spanning terms, that is) "retired" from flying duties.

That 109 is now with the guy who's name I can't remember at Niagra Falls. He bought it from David Price's Santa Monica collection along with his Mk XII Hurri. He also bought a Harvard and Spit IX MK912 from HFL at Duxford...

(His name's Ed Russell, an architect...)

What type of thing do you want to know? If it is questions about actually flying the aeroplanes - ie not in combat, but privately, such as airshows I may be able to help - I may know of just the man... PM me with what kind of thing you;d like to know if this is the case, and I'll see what I can do...

Charlie

[Professor Brensec]

Wow....so many responses.....
I was trying to find Spit pilots as wel...(there seem to be more winners around than well...um...losers..... )

Thanks all,

A.

I think it's pretty safe to say that there are more Allied flyers around than German (or Japanese for that matter), simply because of the odds against their survival towards the end of the war (Although both would be extrememly old now,  if alive at all).

In both theatres, they were so outnumbered towards the end and in most instances (except for the Me262), they were up against superior machinery and seasoned pilots who had the luxury of leave and 'creature comforts' that just weren't available to the 'enemy' at that time. Not to mention the 'demoralising' effects of having the crud kicked out of you.

In a number of the Bio's on the page I referred to before, it is amazing how long these men (German Experten - I'm not sure about the Japanese situation) went, fighting day after day, flying 5, 6, or 8 missions a day, without any time off or even a day of rest. Some are said to have done it for literally 'years' - non-stop.

It's also mentioned, in a number of cases, that this could well be a contributing factor to their eventual demises (as discussed more recently in our 'Richtofen' thread).

The Americans (and the English to a degree - not quite sure) in the latter stages, had the luxury of days off, R & R, proper rations, fuel, spares etc. There were shortages or complete absence) of all these things in Germany during the last couple of years of the war (say......mid '43 onwards) and even in the earlier stages in the East. They had to defend every single day, and night.

Some did spend time at training facilities (but that can sometimes be more harrowing than fighting the enemy......lol ).

Added to this, the survival rate of Germans taken by the Soviets was not all that great either, so I imagine many were lost this way also. I know Hartmann spent 10 years and survived but he also admits 'being of assistance' to them and joining some 'Anti-Nazi' association that I don't quite understand much about, so he possibly survived, with better treatment, where some.... more ardent Nazi types may have perished.

It's no surprise to me that there is (or has always been) a shortage of German Fighter pilots to give account of their escapades.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

I don't think anyone who hasn't seen one realises quite how small the Bf 109 is. The tiny cockpit has one advantage - the pilot becomes part of the aeroplane. Most Spitfire pilots will tell you that it fitted like a glove. Control was more a question of thinking about it & the aircraft would do it. This must have been very handy in combat.

I'm hoping to get to Canberra in the not too distant future to see all the new stuff at the AWM, including the Bf109G they have (but especially 'George')

The dimensions of the 109 tell the story. It was a very samll plane, even for a fighter. Even the I16 (probably ONE of the first monoplane fighters was physically smaller , it still had a more roomy cockpit.

Again, at the www.luftwaffe-experten.com site, there is mention of the comments and feeling of German pilots who had the opportunity after the war to sit in, for instance the P47 particularly. They were literally 'gobsmacked' at the room in the cockpit. They likened it to a 'ROOM' or some such analogy. They even saw the P51 cockpit as 'very large indeed'.

They were also bemused by the American facination with 'gauges and controls'. Most said that they were totally confused by all the guages, switches and levers (the 109 has very little in the way of instrumentation and controls etc - very utilitarian - only the absolute necessities).

There is a write-up in the Aircraft Specs in 'Fighter Ace', which puts it quite well, with regard to the 109 cockpit (which never changed in size or general layout over so many different models):

"Kinder historians describe the Bf109 cockpit as a 'Glove-like' fit, whereas the more realistic describe it as 'coffin-like'".

I think this is a good way to describe the differnet views of those, who were used to flying the plane, as opposed to those who were used to a more 'roomy' arrangement.  ;D

P.S. With the tight fit, and the 'fold-open' canopy, I imagine it was a difficult plane to bail out of. I've read that the preferred way of 'exiting' was to turn upside down and undo your harness, but this presented the danger of being hit by the vertical stabilizer.

[Hagar]

P.S. With the tight fit, and the 'fold-open' canopy, I imagine it was a difficult plane to bail out of. I've read that the preferred way of 'exiting' was to turn upside down and undo your harness, but this presented the danger of being hit by the vertical stabilizer.

It always puzzled me why they retained the side-hinged canopy on later models of the Bf 109. This made it impossible for the pilot to escape if the aircraft overturned on the ground.